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Planescape: Torment Topic


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#61
Purkake

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No, which is why inexperienced people do not get a vote. Art is an elite thing - has been and always will be. You have to know the subject thoroughly to reconize the artistic value of it.

That's pretty rich considering that Van Gogh (among others) was horribly underappreciated during his lifetime. I guess his contemporaries believed themselves to be every bit as enlightened as you believe yourself to be.

"Art" is make-believe.

Planescape Torment was released a decade ago, which is a practically a century in the video game world and we're still talking about it. That's more than 90% of games can claim.


To be fair, we are talking about it because this is the ex-BIS and generally wRPG-oriented forum.

Pretty much no one else is talking about it.

#62
RPGmasterBoo

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So once thought you could unmistakably pick out art from non-art without being familiar with that specific piece?

I maintain that something that is art to one person might not be so for another, even when they are both educated.


Everyone is fallible, just like the mentioned contemporaries of Van Gogh, recognising lasting value is a very difficult job, and time is often the best judge.

I maintain that art is art regardless of personal likes and dislikes, or the capacity of the individual to recognize it as such. I admit to having a moderate knowledge of visual arts/classical music and the rest of what's considered high art. Hence I'm hesitant to pass any opinion apart from like/dislike.
On video games I'm a bit more concrete. I agree to disagree on what is art in that field since that's the only the only way to gather opinions and end up with any sort of objective opinion in the end. Even if none is reached it will still be a valuable discussion.
Much more so than the usual crappy reviews which pass for critical thinking.

#63
RPGmasterBoo

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To be fair, we are talking about it because this is the ex-BIS and generally wRPG-oriented forum.

Pretty much no one else is talking about it.


Well Torment repeatedly enters most of the "best games of all time lists", which at the very least means it has earned a place in most critics/gamers memories. That;s a start.

#64
Craigboy2

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I awoke, on a slab, in what was obviously a mortuary. As I levered myself up, I caught movement from the corner of my eye. A floating skull. No, I realized as it spoke: a floating, talking, skull.

Oh god that is horrible writing.


I have printed the entire novelization and the parts where the writer included things to tie the dialog together are functional. He never intended to screw around with the plot, or write a novel but merely to deliver the dialog in a cohesive manner. I have re-read it many times, enjoying it each time. Torment is art.


Posted Image

Hey that's my comment!

Edited by Craigboy2, 13 September 2009 - 04:11 PM.


#65
RPGmasterBoo

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:sorcerer:

#66
213374U

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Like most artists that explored new forms outside of accepted conventions. Today he's considered exceptional, so what's your point? The acceptance and admiration of his work came later, but that doesnt change the fact that it came about eventually. The passage of time is often important.

Planescape Torment was released a decade ago, which is a practically a century in the video game world and we're still talking about it. That's more than 90% of games can claim.

I think I know what I'm talking about and I'm not afraid to say it, so sue me. I don't seek anyone's agreement.

My point is that "art" has no intrinsic value - it's worth as much as "experts" say it's worth. And those experts were formed by other experts and so on and so forth. Once in a while, one expert comes along and he's charismatic and/or assertive enough to rock things about a little. Therefore, since there are no intrinsic, immanent qualities or properties to be recognized in "art", you cannot be any better at spotting and appreciating it than anyone else. This isn't just technique and craft we're talking about, right?

Yeah, I know you don't care what anyone else says, you're just here to proselytize. Don't get all defensive when you encounter resistance, though.

By the way, um, very few people even know about your precious Torment. Get out of your ivory tower once in a while. That's why it's considered a "cult" title, y'know?


Your argument is pointless solipsism. But believe what you want.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

#67
RPGmasterBoo

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My point is that "art" has no intrinsic value - it's worth as much as "experts" say it's worth. And those experts were formed by other experts and so on and so forth. Once in a while, one expert comes along and he's charismatic and/or assertive enough to rock things about a little. Therefore, since there are no intrinsic, immanent qualities or properties to be recognized in "art", you cannot be any better at spotting and appreciating it than anyone else. This isn't just technique and craft we're talking about, right?

Yeah, I know you don't care what anyone else says, you're just here to proselytize. Don't get all defensive when you encounter resistance, though.

By the way, um, very few people even know about your precious Torment. Get out of your ivory tower once in a while. That's why it's considered a "cult" title, y'know?


Your argument is pointless solipsism. But believe what you want.

I don't think that means what you think it means.


"The definition and evaluation of art has become especially problematic since the early 20th century. Richard Wollheim distinguishes three approaches: the Realist, whereby aesthetic quality is an absolute value independent of any human view; the Objectivist, whereby it is also an absolute value, but is dependent on general human experience; and the Relativist position, whereby it is not an absolute value, but depends on, and varies with, the human experience of different humans."

It apparent where we stand in this, and that the positions are irreconcilable since they echo a long standing debate. If you indeed adhere to the third position i understand that but i still think its a pointless place to be. Lets leave it at that.

proselytize - 1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause
No, I voice my opinon but I neither have the time or the desire to convince anyone to follow it. If someone does that's nice, if they don't that's nice as well.

Out of the 2 billion people in China I'd say 1.9 billion never heard of Caravaggio. So what?
I like my ivory tower. I have guest rooms and serve milk and cookies - and you're all invited. :sorcerer:

Posted Image

Edited by RPGmasterBoo, 13 September 2009 - 04:32 PM.


#68
Purkake

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I told you art was nothing but trouble. It's like arguing over religion, nothing good comes of it.

So how about that skull, he was pretty funny.

#69
Stephen Amber

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The cranium rats were too difficult for me. I had to go back to BG2 at the time.

#70
Sargallath Abraxium

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I shall wait for you in death’s halls, my Love.


...still brings a tear ta me eye, it does... :(


...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

#71
Deadly_Nightshade

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Pretty much no one else is talking about it.


GoG users seem to disagree - although, again, they are more likely to be biased in favor of the game than, say, a Halo kiddy.

#72
mr insomniac

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GoG users seem to disagree - although, again, they are more likely to be biased in favor of the game than, say, a Halo kiddy.

Funny to see some similarly named games in the list:
the ever popular Planetscape: Torment. :(
Planescape: Tournament, which might actually be fun, if it existed.
Planet Escape: Tour. :huh:
Plan An Escape, Mel Torme :lol:

#73
Bos_hybrid

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To be fair, we are talking about it because this is the ex-BIS and generally wRPG-oriented forum.

Pretty much no one else is talking about it.


Well Torment repeatedly enters most of the "best games of all time lists", which at the very least means it has earned a place in most critics/gamers memories. That;s a start.


As does Doom, Half Life, BG, KoTOR, Quake, Mario, MGS and Halo. Besides game journalists are paid. :)


Pretty much no one else is talking about it.


GoG users seem to disagree - although, again, they are more likely to be biased in favor of the game than, say, a Halo kiddy.


Again that's a fraction of the gaming community. I voted for SS2.

Edited by Bos_hybrid, 14 September 2009 - 03:15 AM.


#74
Humodour

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Torment was pretty sweet, but it's also a relic of a time long gone, a better time. A time when I was but a bright-eyed kid with a world of possibilities in front of me, now I'm just another jaded fan reminiscing about past glory.


I sometimes wonder if it's because I was a kid when I played games like Torment, and now I'm 21.

But then I hear people who were 21 when the first played games like Torment say the same thing.

Seems the Gaming industry really has lost its spark. The only game that has really grabbed me since the days of HL1, Deus Ex 1, and Torment, is Portal. And I guess I played Diablo 2 until well into 2005.

So I'm looking to Valve and Blizzard for hope.

#75
jero cvmi

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As a 30 year old who played Torment for the first time in 2008, i beg to differ. Torment is great for anyone who enjoys computer DnD, macabre atmosphere, mind boggling quests and well-written walls of text. Age and nostalgia are pretty irrelevant, for me at least.

On the other hand, i'm curious how many people here would find Torment's story interesting, if they were completely unfamiliar with the DnD setting. I think it's considered a "niche" game because it's mainly targeted at DnD players.

edit: My favorite thing about Torment is that it's set in a fantasy setting, and yet in the whole game there is only 1 magic sword, and you can't use it. I <3 Torment.

Edited by Ziggy the Atomic Granpa, 14 September 2009 - 03:57 AM.


#76
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On the other hand, i'm curious how many people here would find Torment's story interesting, if they were completely unfamiliar with the DnD setting. I think it's considered a "niche" game because it's mainly targeted at DnD players.


Well when I played Torment for the firtst time, I had no clue what D&D is, even tough I played Baldur's Gate before. I tought that D&D was made purely for those games and enjoyed them a lot.
It was only later when I had been blessed with the amazing and glorious new god - Internet - that I learnt about D&D.

#77
Gorgon

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Call me stupid, but I actually think there would be money in a PST sequel.

#78
Mamoulian War

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No, which is why inexperienced people do not get a vote. Art is an elite thing - has been and always will be. You have to know the subject thoroughly to reconize the artistic value of it.

That's pretty rich considering that Van Gogh (among others) was horribly underappreciated during his lifetime. I guess his contemporaries believed themselves to be every bit as enlightened as you believe yourself to be.

"Art" is make-believe.

Planescape Torment was released a decade ago, which is a practically a century in the video game world and we're still talking about it. That's more than 90% of games can claim.


To be fair, we are talking about it because this is the ex-BIS and generally wRPG-oriented forum.

Pretty much no one else is talking about it.


this can be written as:

To be fair, we are talking about Van Gogh because we are all graduates of Classic Art Universities.

Pretty much no one else is talking about it.


Does that mean Van Gogh is all of a sudden not art? :sorcerer:

#79
Amentep

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The art discussion always goes straight to hell.


Yeah, but so do half the regular discussion topics on the internet. :sorcerer:


The other half take the circuitous route.

#80
Mamoulian War

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As a 30 year old who played Torment for the first time in 2008, i beg to differ. Torment is great for anyone who enjoys computer DnD, macabre atmosphere, mind boggling quests and well-written walls of text. Age and nostalgia are pretty irrelevant, for me at least.

On the other hand, i'm curious how many people here would find Torment's story interesting, if they were completely unfamiliar with the DnD setting. I think it's considered a "niche" game because it's mainly targeted at DnD players.

edit: My favorite thing about Torment is that it's set in a fantasy setting, and yet in the whole game there is only 1 magic sword, and you can't use it. I <3 Torment.



I was completely unfamiliar with ADnD (and any other PnP RPG games) at the time i played Torment... I fell in love with the story on first play :sorcerer:




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