to add to Dakari's statement -

7 years after ROTJ Luke establishes the Jedi Academy on Yavin by himself.

if you looked on star wars map you would understand my idea, that the planets Dantooine, Mon Calamari, Telos and Yavin are all spread out and there are 1 or 2 masters in charge of each training ground and responsible for recruiting jedi in that territory. And if it is 5 years between the 2 games thats 5 years of no war. The Jedi and Republic have had some time to "catch its breath".

5 years after ROTJ, even tho the New Republic/Rebel fleet is still very vulnerable it still can take on Admiral Thrawn and the Remnant w/ the clones.

I never said the republic fleet in the next game was going to be rebuilt or invincible, its still going to be vulnerable and stretched thin.

I'll admit that my idea for the Sith attacking the capitol was a really bad idea.

does anyone agree w/ the Dark Jedi character and no Sith character tho?

I would suggest that they introduce a defensive feat that can be launched during combat. For instance, "Parry Sequence".

All you are trying to do is tie up someone's time so that one of your party members can actually do the damage.

Could come in real handy if you are playing a Jedi Consular, for instance.

Well, anyone that plays a consular would have shocked him or put him in stasis and killed them by the time someone else does the damage.

I am trying to work out a way to balance out the game abit.

you know, change class skills.....stuff like that.

For example, the Sentinel has no need for stealth to be a class skill....only Watchman and Assassin get the class skill because of their force cloak....or whatever it is called.

If they kept the skill points per turn basicly the same, why couldn't they do the same for the class skills......too bad they really screwed stuff up..

Because all the Jedi are dead, and there is no council. To have a council is to dwindle the meaning of KOTOR 2, which was to destroy the Jedi, and it did. Kreia got all the masters in one spot, and sucked them dry. IF YOU have played KOTOR 2 you'd know that there were less than 100 Jedi at the end of the War of the Star Forge. Those Jedi died on Katarr, and with them the flame of the Jedi went out. Now only a very few are alive.

Bastila, Revan, Exile, are the only offical Jedi that are still alive at the end of KOTOR 3. We don't know the fate of the KOTOR 2 characters, and you can't say they all became Jedi, and you don't even know if some of them even died. So therefore you can just say, Atton,Boa-Dur, and Handmaiden are Jedi because you don't know that.

There will be no order, council in the next game, because if there is then what was the point of KOTOR 2's set up to 3. With the Jedi gone the True Sith will attack the Republic, because this was the plan from the start.

KOTOR 3 will not be about new councils, or a Jedi order. It will be about a very week Jediless republic vs the True Sith.

Save a game for new orders and jedi for after KOTOR 3, becuase it fits much better.

DEWAYBE: The High council was the council that was destroyed in KOTOR 2. That council was located on Coruscant. There were only 3 council members left by the time of KOTOR 2, and they were finished off by Kreia on Dantooine.

umm wait a sec, you say we dont even know if the exile's companions are alive or not but when you talk to kreia about the future she tells you:

mira will die on a forgotten world saving innocents
mical will stand on the jedi council
handmaiden will take up the role of historian like atris OR she will be a killing machine or something
visas will go back to her homeworld and look upon it like she was supposed to OR let vengeance go and follow the path you've set for her
atton will always be a fool OR he will be a predator and kill people to feed his hunger or somethin

im not sure if there was anything about hanharr

the only ones kreia didnt know about were bao-dur and the droids, and you did see a holovid of him on malachor talking to his droid

ALSO, she said that these were the Lost Jedi, that they will be what the future is built on or something along those lines. i dont know what you got from that but i think that means they're gonna start a new, better jedi order. one that isnt so arrogant and uncaring. As for there being no other jedi, there are other force sensitive people in the galaxy that the jedi will find and recruit and build the new order on.

and what has bastila been doing for the last 5 years??? im sure she was doing something to create a new council. i mean thats supposed to be her job, keeping the republic strong, and the jedi do keep the republic strong when they arent hung up on themselves. she was prolly finding jedi artifacts or working to build a new order or somethin.

i do not think kotor2 was about killing the jedi. i think it was more about finally getting rid of the old, arrogant, unwise, weak and uncaring jedi order, and starting a new, better one.

In the interest of putting out flames...

This whole "there is/isn't a Jedi Council" is starting to become very... confrontational. Remember where anger leads...

In fact, there is merit to both sides of the argument. I'll go over both.

Arguments why there is no council:

You have to look at how Jedi have been steadily dying at the time up the end of KotOR2. Not everybody may know this, having not read the Tales of the Jedi comic books (particularly the Sith War), but many, many, many jedi died during that war.

Now before you go ahead and dismiss that as unrelated, you should note that these games were built on the basis of those comic books, and events from them are frequently referenced in the games.

Indeed, the first five issues told two stories - "Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast-Riders of Onderon" and "The Saga of Nomi Sunrider". When those five originals were reprinted as a trade-paperback, it was retitled "Knights of the Old Republic" years before the first KotOR game came out. And note those names - Ulic, Nomi, and Onderon should all names familiar to KotOR fanatics.

So consider these losses to the jedi over the last 50 or so years:

- Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma begin the Sith War. They convert many jedi students and them to kill their jedi masters. Many, many masters are killed, and by the end of the war only about 1000 jedi are left.

- The Mandalorian Wars (about 35 years later). The Jedi are split on whether to get involved in the Mandalorian invasions given their failing numbers in recent years. It splits the order and many jedi leave to fight the Mandalorians, leaving the order forever either to be killed in the war or be converted to the Sith by Revan.

- Jedi Civil War (KotOR1). Revan and Malak wage war on the jedi, hunting them down and attacking the republic. When Revan is captured, Malak continues to hunt down or convert the jedi in his place

- The Sith Lords (KotOR2). With Revan and Malak gone, the Sith are in disarray and fight among themselves. It doesn't help the jedi much, however, because shortly after the Jedi find themselves hunted down and killed by the Sith whenever they go. To stand united against the problem, the remaining jedi gather on Katarr only to be killed when Darth Nihilus drains the planet of all life. The few remaining jedi spread and hide to draw the insidious Sith out even as the Exchange offers huge rewards for captured Jedi. Soon there are no known jedi left, and the remaining jedi masters from the council on Dantooine are killed soon after too.

Conclusion: If there are any jedi left, then they are indeed few.



Arguments for there still being a council:¨

Although the jedi have been hunted down and killed for years and years now, there are still some unanswered questions that could suggest more jedi left:

- We know that the council on Dantooine is gone. We haven't heard anything about the high council on Coruscant, which is what most suggestions regarding a jedi council seems to point to.

- There are a lot of characters whose fates we know nothing about. Yes, the fates of Atton, Visas, etc. are unknown (we don't even know if any of them - except Visas - were jedi, because it depends on player choices in KotOR2), and if Revan turned dark side in KotOR1, then Jolee and Juhani are both dead.
But we don't know about non-game characters like Tot Doneeta, Nomi Sunrider, Master Arka, and a host of others from the comic books. Dismiss them if you like, but Vima Sunrider became a jedi in the "Redemption" comic book, and we know she is alive several thousand years later (since she makes an appearance in the "Dark Empire" comic book), so clearly Nihilus and Kreia did not kill the all the remaining jedi.

Conclusion: There are likely some jedi left.


So where does that leave us? Well, the jedi are dying, but they probably aren't completely dead yet. I could imagine a single council on Coruscant, but it would be one of mostly knights-made-masters due to necessity, and there would be jedi only on Coruscant, because there just aren't enough jedi left to have several training facilities for new students - the remaining jedi would simply be spread too thin, so they have concentrated their abilities in one place in an effort to rebuild.

Well, as I see it...

Sound reasonable?

yeah that sounds reasonable

kreia did mention the jedi temple on coruscant about the room of a thousand fountains. so i dont think jedi temple on coruscant is destroyed. it makes sense to concentrate there and they'd be protected by the republic gov't too.

that what was i wondering . but i totally agree with you. i wasn't sure what council that was i have been erunning at 99mph since i completed game last i ha

All the hundred Jedi died on Katarr. The only Jedi left are Revan, Exile, Bastila, and as a fan favorite Jolee. As such there is no council, nor a need for one in KOTOR 3. For people to look forward to a council in KOTOR 3 is complete and utter foolishness, as the High Coucil was completely destroyed(finished off in KOTOR 2), and the Temple itself is empty. That's what the came of Coruscant was meant for, to show the HIGH COUNCIL, because the HIGH COUNCIL is located on Coruscant.

Atton,Boa-Dur,Handmaiden, Diciple, all possible Jedi, but who knows for sure that they became Jedi. So what if Mira survived, or Atton, that doesn't make them Jedi.

and buddy Master Arca died sometime before the Sith war, and Vima-da-boda is Vima' greatest grandchild, not Vima Sunrider herself.

KOTOR 3 is an ending, like ROTJ, where there are hardly any Jedi left. One of the points of KOTOR 2 was for the Sith to finally get rid of their enemies, and they have for the most part. Now a hand full of Jedi,Mandalorians, and the remains of the Republic fleet, are all that stands in the way of the True Sith Army.

The Jedi council usually, from what I've seen, are the wisest of the Jedi who help the young and give the missions. Problem for KOTOR 3 is that, Revan,Exile, Bastila, and Jolee have no one to help, because the Jedi are all gone.

When you think of a story, think of how it's going to play out. The smartest road, and best story. KOTOR 3 is about a Jediless Republic vs the True Sith, not an army of Jedi and their council vs the True Sith. Doing such a thing dwindles one of the subplots of KOTOR 2, not to mention Kreia's part of the story.

forgetting cat woman if she's still live.

http://www.gamedreamz.com/forum/showthread...21396#post21396

You know people, you don't have to quote the whole fnckin' thread only to answer with a single line. It's hell of a lot easier for us readers to follow the thread if you stick to common sense when quoting and posting.

ok a few things... <blabber>

1. we probably won't see a "council" per se, be we probably will se a ragtag semi-organisational group directing the preliminary rebuilding attempts for the Jedi.

2. Answering what the subject actually is, ideas for Kotor 3...

- I minght be possible to play as the Exile again, and not level 50. (cringes from emminent Hades loud protestations that "There is no level draining in Star Wars d20"). It has always been more important to justify the lower level realisticly in the story, for there be an actuall rule in the ruleset the game is "based" on. So anyway, Spoiler:It turned out that the exile didn't reconect with the force, he was just sucking it from other people. A Jedi wouldn't like this, so he would self impose an exile to try to reconnect to the force on his own. A Sith would have seen the weakness Nihlus had and self imposes an exile to try to reconnect to the force on his own. don't really like this idea though.

- More interpersoanl interactions. The Influence system was a great idea, not implemented fully though, and there were no quests that allowed the NPC to grow. There should be more convos like when you first get to Nar Shadda.

- change the dialong system. I would like to see every option you make affect your alignmight slightly. Put the darker options at the top, so if you just zoom through it, you get darkside options (patience is the mark of a jedi).
Also, when you are slipping to the darkside, you should get more and more darker options and less light options, and the light options give you less. This would help demonstrate how hard it is to return from the dark side.
You could also have the option of saying a line in jest.

- more epic final battle... this gripe is differrnt to other fianl battle gripes. I was seroiosly upset when we got to the starforge on jotor1 that i had to leave some people on the ship. Why? i envision a gradoise battle where your entire posse did battle with an entire army. Same with kotor2.

- closure (gos without saying really)

- hand to hand forms. When you get taught Echani forms in kotor1, i expected to be able to fight wth a different style, with more grace and power.

- a heavly character driven story. Even if you can;t bring lots of people with you, they should all chat on the Ebon Hawk. You should even have some non-party members traveling on the Ebon Hawk to offer insights. As i said, like the start of Nar Shadda.

- Ebon Hawk can stay, but i liked how it was upgraded slightly in 2. So i would like to see purchasable upgrades fro the EH and maybe some real space battles.

Anyway</blabber>

First of, I'm surprised you seem so hellbent on killing off every single jedi in existence. Why is that? Surely there a few left. It's also seems rather double standard to demand that every single on of them is dead and then make a particular exception for Jolee just because you like him. I like Jolee too, but other people like Nomi or Juhani or whomever and your preferences is no better (or worse) than anyone else's... nor is mine.

Also, it's similar double standard to say that Atton, Bao-Dur, etc. cannot be presumed to be jedi because that is player choice and then proceed to call Revan, Bastila and the Exile Jedi - if you chose dark side endings so far then they are all Sith and not Jedi, and that choice is just as legitimate as turning your companions in KotOR2 into jedi - they can all be presumed to be jedi just as much as Revan, Bastila and the Exile can be presumed to be light side.

Finally, you're reading what you want to read from my post and not what I wrote. I specifically said "knights-made-masters due to necessity", which more than implies a group of very inexperienced jedi working together to reestablish the order in some form and who *call* themselves the high counsel. They would, however, be neither masters or high council in the way those terms would be taken before the Sith War or similar.



Yes, I incorrectly mentioned master Arca when I meant to say master Thon (the big ox-like creature that trained Nomi). Mea culpa.

I have apparently also mistaken the reference to which Vima was meast in the source mentioned. Still not sure, but I'll take your word for it. Still, if she is Vima's grandchild, then it does seem to suggest that Vima Sunrider must have lived through the events were talking about...





I'd pretty much go along with that. I'd still say there might be a few jedi left, but not to the extent that they can put up much or indeed any king of a fight if the Sith began a concentrated invasion of the republic.



If KotOR1 ended with the dark side ending, then Jolee is dead and neither Revan nor Bastila are jedi. If KotOR2 ended with the dark side ending then neither is the Exile (or he cannot be called a jedi since he just steals the force from others - if there is no force to steal, then he'll have no jedi powers at all), so if we're going to take things to the level you suggest then the game must be renamed since there are likely no jedi - no knights - left at all, unless you suggest that the light side endings of the previous games, particularly the first, should just be assumed and forced on the game - personally I wouldn't want that (though I do tend to play light side...).




Kreia hated the force - she didn't much care about the struggle between the jedi and the sith. And the game is called "Knights of the Old Republic", so we must have jedi *knights* in it.

My suggestion for KotOR 3 would be as follows.

First, more of everything. Bigger worlds to explore. More NPCs. More party members. The ability to not be a jedi as a main character. Make the ability to beat the game multple ways like in fallout, where you could be the charismatic leader and **** your way through the universe getting other people to do things for you. Maybe have charisma effect the number of party members. More races to play as.

Longer play time would be cool. Say 40 hours to beat the game just doing story based events, and 70ish hours to complete everything. I cant speak for everyone , but i don't like creating a character playing it then only having 25-30 hours of play time with it. More customization is always a plus. I liked comparing characters with my friends, Fallout 2 characters.

Release the toolset with KotOR 3 like the toolset was released with Never Winter Nights so the mod community can get a hold of it easily and mod the crap out of it. Create more content, keeps the game alive and people wanting more.

Perhaps even some kind of fort on some planet you can customize and build upon, gather forces at. If your sith it could be a sith training academy.

I say drop Revan and the Exile. Create a new story. Something new. Something that does not feel like the movies. To me both games felt like i was playing the movies but with different characters. From a design perspective it is probably easier to not have to worry about all the back story on 2 games to make a 3rd game fit into the story they wrote years ago.

Perhaps for the story come at it from a third angle. Instead of having the jedi and sith fighting and you pick a side, you are say a Bounty Hunter or errand boy from some barren planet in the middle of no where, and your just trying to live through the jedi/sith war. Through that conflict you could pick good or evil, or perhaps some neutral side to stop the.

Or another story angle could be that your senator father was killed and your tring to find out why, and mystery ensues. Let story be not on such a grand scale that you dictate the future of the entire galaxy.

Those are just my humble suggestions. Thanks for the games Obsidian. Cant wait to update my mod to NWN 2, (or to finish my group mod for NWN).

Eric Ic Foster

i think if they drop the revan&exule story all together the backlash will be far worst then the kotor 2 backlash. just from i gather from the boards i been on.

I'd like multiple paths in games too, but the fact is that it just isn't cost-effective to do it. Sure it was great in the Fallout series (and a lot of people behind that work at Obsidian now), but there is an important distinction - in Fallout all the dialogue was text only (except the very few "talking heads"), so doing an alternate was mostly a question of writing some extra comments in there and perhaps a few more graphics.

That's not the case anymore, since all dialogue is expected to be spoken, which makes it very expensive to produce. The same is true for graphics and programming, which is also far more demanding today. Computer games have become an industry, and what used to be three to eight guys playing around with a game has become monster groups of 20+ people working full time for more than a year just to produce one game. That makes it for to costly to produce stuff in the games that players won't see - the most will be a few sideplots here and there for replay value, and this is a major reason why most CRPGs today take a "one size fit all" approach even if there are supposed to be different choices and endings in a game - not, for example, how the light/dark side choice is forced only very late in both KotOR games, even though it's best for the player to make that choice as soon as possible. This happens for a reason.



You and me both...



I'd like that too, but I hear Lucasarts don't like to let people mod their games, so that's probably totally out Obsidian's hands. Still, I'm confident the modding community won't let that stop them



This is unlikely for the same reasons given above - if you being as jedi you can still 'fall' to the dark side during the game, so there is no reason why the devs should bother to write a sith academy.



They're undoubtedly supposed to feel like the movies, since that is what the largest demographic will resond positively too. You cannot get rid of Revan or the Exile, though, since KotOR3 is probably supposed to close the story for at least Revan. I'm quite certain you'll be playing a new jedi, though, as playing Revan or Exile from the beginning (as some have suggested) would make the game seem less accessible to people who have not played chapthers 1 and 2.



I wouldn't mind a game like that, but not as a KotOR title. It wouldn't be "Knights of the Old Republic" in that case - these are games where jedi (and sith) are at the center. Other games can go in other directions, though. Having a bounty hunter ally could be fun, though (and no, I don't count Mira in KotOR2 - she may have called herself a bounty hunter, but she was no Boba Fett.)



Well, since I do want to see Revan and the Exile, I'm obviously to agree with you. To each his own, I guess... Some of what you suggest might be worked into the plot, though.

i'm not trying all the jedi are dead. but i do believe that there'll be council no new padawans, etc. thios is a time of great darkness in the galaxy.

They're undoubtedly supposed to feel like the movies, since that is what the largest demographic will resond positively too. You cannot get rid of Revan or the Exile, though, since KotOR3 is probably supposed to close the story for at least Revan. I'm quite certain you'll be playing a new jedi, though, as playing Revan or Exile from the beginning (as some have suggested) would make the game seem less accessible to people who have not played chapthers 1 and 2.

oi was thinking on thati guess we can new a new pc for people who haven't played the previous kotors. but give us maybe an option to bypass him. i mean use the new pc to bring new players up to speed. but give vets a option to go to revan or exile.

Well KOTOR 2 the rest of the Jedi dieing on Katarr, that was the point. There were 100 Jedi left after the Jedi Civil War, and they were mostly killed on Katarr itself. I'm not saying all are dead, Revan,Exile,Bastila,Jolee(and I meant fan favorite, not just because I like him, because the majority likes him, more so than Juhani, so you pick which one is the most likely to return)

There will me no council in KOTOR 2, because it doesn't fit. We're not going to open the game being sent on a mission my an invisible council. Revan is in the outer rim, Exile has gone after him, Bastila is doing something else, and etc. The temple is empty, and what Jedi are left are scattered. And we're talking about only a possible 10-15 Jedi left in the galaxy, and that's counting the possible KOTOR 2 party members. So to have a council in the game would be a LOL statement.

This is not how the story plays out. A council, and order is meant for AFTER KOTOR 3, not during. Let the war end before going back into rebuilding, becuase most people rebuild after WARS. Vima can be alive,and some other as well, but they aren't going to form a council, they aren't ignorant. They are going to meet to descide what they must do about the Sith, and that will be all.

Vima Da-Boba was only 200 years old during Dark Empire, she is the greatest grandchild.

LFL license has already chosen lightside for KOTOR, they always choose lightside, so I go with lightside.

And Kreia wanted to get all her enemies out in the open so they could be destroyed. The Exile accomplished this for her. He got the High Council in one place, and he helped destroy the remaining Malak/Revan Sith.

And who says there won't be Jedi knights? There just won't be an order or a council.

The question of a Revan and Malak not beign used because the player wouldn't understand if not played KOTOR 1/2, is mute.

There are a 1000 games that have sequels that use the,"You want to know more, play the other games" method. This is no different.

Same thing as going to see a Star Wars movie, but not seeing any of the others.

i concur look at wing commander 1-4 techenically all the person. especially if you play the kilrathi verison.

Another idea, well a story idea, and because it's a story Idea I know it will never be used, but I just have to get if out of my mind.

It involves the Mandalore, and it's a scene during a great fleet battle between the Sith and the Republic and allies. The Allies are taking heavy fire, and can't seem to break through the Sith line, one of the reasons being because of one of the Sith super flagships causing some devastating damage.

Carth com's Mandalore, whos fighting on his Basilisk, and asks if the Mandalorians can take the ship out. Mandalore's forces are tied up as it is, but upon looking at the damage the ship is doing he descides to take the ship on himself.

He flys straight toward the thing, flanked by two other Basilisk that clear his path before pulling off, and he alone flys over the haul, evading fire, toward the bridge. The Sith commander isn't impressed at the stupidity of the Mandalorian coming his way, and doesn't feel they are in any danger. He tells his crew to only use a few guns to target the Basilisk, and to continuie the focus of the rest of the guns on the main fleet.

Clearly the Sith commander does not know that Mandalore's personal War Droid does not have the regular generator rods, but instead a modified version of the MX(a weapon that Mandalore the Indomitable looted from Mandalore in the Sith War) in it's place. The weapon powers up and fires directly at the bridge. The Sith commander is stunned by the power of the blast, but belives the shield held, that is until he's told otherwise by his crew chief. The blast left a big enough hole in the shield for Mandalore to fire a compression bomb right at the view port. The, less looking bug, bomb attaches to the view port of the bridge, and everyone aboard knows what is about to happen next.

Which a grand explosion the bridge is blown off, and the Sith ship begins role away. Seeing the event just happen, Carth is clearly surprised, and gets a,"Did you see that Carth, " from Admiral Dodonna before interupted by Mandalore.

Who simply says,"There's your hole Onasi."

Only a Mandalorian could pull off such a daring attack.

Of course this is my attempt to have the Mandalore/Canderous, do one super great thing. I'd like to have Canderous remembered for something of impossible standards.

He is Mandalore after all.

im interested to know if most people in this forum want to:

start off as a new character at level 1 and what class? soldier, scout, scoundrel, a jedi class or a prestige class? OR start off as the exile where you left off at level thrity?

i was thinking maybe instead of starting out a DS or LS or 2 separate places maybe starting at the same point and having a convo about the exile and revan in the beginning and the choices or questions you ask in the convo will determine what has actually happend and what party members, actions and options you will have the oppurtunity to have later on. For example if you have a convo about Onderon and figure out that the exile helped Queen Talia win the Civil War then maybe she will be a party member later on or one of her advisers is sent w/ you under her orders and if the exile helped General Vaklu then maybe his new colonel (since Tobin is dead) could be a sent to aid you under Vaklu's orders. i cant see vaklu ever giving up power and joining your character but i can see talia being an adviser to a new queen or somethin and going w/ you.

umm did Goto say that the republic will collapse in 6 standard months, i dont remember. and that eiher the sith or republic will control it. so will the events in kotor3 only be 6 months after the end of kotor2 when the sith begin attacking then?

i would like to see that would be cool.

my scene between revan and carth if we play revan and bastila is missing again.

Carth: Revan, Bastila is missing again.

Revan: You saying what i think you are....

Carth: She's your girl

Revan: This never gets old...i guess we oughtta go find her.

Carth: you could just forget about it or something to that affevt

Revan: go to H***

I don't think it's a smart move to have Talia as a party member. She is Queen of Onderon, nothing more, and she should stay that way.

This is another idea of mine...Let me know what you think:

It would be cool, just to start as a Jedi Padawan or a Sith Padawan and you choose from the start which one you will be and you will choose what Revan and the Exile did. (Lightside, Darkside, Male or Female)

Both Starts in a different location and they all have different quests.

I think that instead of just Levels there should be ranks also:

Jedi Apprentice
Jedi Padawan
Jedi Knight
Jedi Master

Or however the rank goes.

when you start, you design your character, nothing gets chosen for you, no feats, no class skills, no force powers and no classes.

You choose your characters' appearence and name and you start at the respecting Academy (Jedi or Sith) and the first thing you do is pick which feats you will start with. (and i don't mean all the way up until Master Flurry and Master Dueling or whatever you like to pick)

So, instead of starting with useless feats that you will never use, you will only have the ones you want to use. (Feats that effect Ranged Weapons will not be available)

Your Force Powers and Feats will not be learned like it is on Kotor I & II, you will need to be taught them by your Masters (Since you can only learn everything by cheating, you will have seperate masters)

But as it is with the classes in Kotor I & II, you can't focus on Combat like a Guardian or a Weapon Master or a Marauder and still focus on force powers like a Consular or a Jedi Master and a SithLord.

If you picked the Jedi Guardian/Weaponsmaster/Marauder route, you will be focusing on Saber Combat, but you will have force powers, but don't rely on them to save your ass.

The same goes for the Jedi Consular/Jedi Master/SithLord route, you will be relying on your force powers because lets face it, your combat skills will suck big time. lol

With Skills, you can choose your main skills and you will need the right amount of Intelligence to keep them up. (Inbetween your combat or force usage training, you go through learning the class skills you want and your intelligence will get bonuses from your learning as will your Strength, Wisdom and Charisma)

STR = Combat Training

WIS & CHA = Force Training

INT = Skill Training

You can master skills, but the more time you spend learning skills, the weaker you will get with Combat and Force powers

So, it will be something like this:

Combat Master

Combat: Strong
Force: Weak
Skills: Average

Force Master

Combat: Weak
Force: Strong
Skills: Average

Skill Master

Combat: Weak
Force: Weak
Skills: Strong

This part will be a prologue type of thing, like on Kotor II....you can skip it and you can pick quickly what stuff you want.

In the game itself, you will be able to visit dozens of planets with 2 missions and they will be as follows

1: Cause Havoc / Protect The Innocent (its obvious which is which)

2: Find Force Sensatives (same for both sides)

Not sure whatelse to do. :/

But what do you think so far?

Make the character more interactive with the galaxy! Like give him/her power over a planets politics and "lifestyle". Make him/her general; admiral, or gouvenour. Bring back NPC-s an playable char-s from KOTOR1-2(if he/she played good or bad style), bring back the Ebon Hawk!! (w00t)

Any attempts at this point to maintain accuracy with the last two games in the next game, while still keeping originality and freedom for the user intact, would get pretty convoluted. They'll have to compromise something, and I don't like that. Of the possible compromises, I would almost prefer sacrificing freedom for the other two; except that torment wasn't a financially successful game (even if it was EXTREMELY successful as a game), and we've seen that people don't require great depth in their star wars games.

I don't understand the criticism there was of KotOR 2 for, "dated graphics." Very, very few games have graphics that aren't "dated," it would seem to me, and as far as games in general go the graphics were still as great as ever. And I didn't think the graphics were half as great the first time around as was thought be many. Good graphics are only a must insofar, I think, as advertisment goes, (Can you imagine how successful pac-man has been?) but I would definitely look forward to incredible graphics in any future star wars RPG.

umm...if there isnt supposed to be a jedi council in the next game then there shouldnt be a sith academy anywhere in the galaxy, right? when i say a sith academy im not talking about the actual sith, not only are all the jedi dead but the "fake" sith, the dark jedi that dont belong to the true empire are dead too. so if you're going to start off as a sith it'll have to be a true sith in their empire beyond the outer rim. right?

your right.

some ideas for gameplay:

maybe instead of enemies that are shooting at you and standing out in the open, they could stay closer to the walls or crouch behind debris to fire out you. it'd be cool if in the next game you had like a force throw power and you could move the debris thats guarding a bunch of mercenaries and they scatter to find new cover.

whenever you start out as a jedi in the next game only neutral powers should be available on the selection screen and as you gain LS/DS points and/or are trained by your new master, new powers in that certain category will become available to you. instead of gaining a new class at level 15 it should depend on how many LS and DS points you rack up. After so many DS pts are gained only DS or neutral answers during convos are available. If you become higher than a prestige class in the next game there should be a point where you have so many DS pts that you cannot go back to LS at all UNLESS there is a critical moment in the game where an ally or your master tries to bring you back or convert you. same thing goes if being LS. If you do reach that point where you cannot go back or even after the few critical moments to change back have not turned you then you should have new feats and powers open to you for be loyal to your particular side of the force.

Also you should not have to be LS or DS. i was disappointed in the game when i tried to stay neutral i found that i couldnt even become a neutral prestige class or even a LS or DS prestige class. Staying neutral should have corresponding powers and feats also. maybe taking those selfish convo choices could have Scoundrel pts or somethin?

I think that they should have more going on in the enviroment in the actual game itself. Like there should be more ramdon NPC's walking around like on Telos theres only a few and also they should have more of the characters sitting down I mean they're legs must be killing them with all that standing up. Also another thing is that you can get a Double-bladed Lightsaber to easily in SWKOTOR2 you can start getting loads after you get you first saber so in SWKOTOR3 you should only be able to get One doublebladed saber and not untill like the last quarter of the game.

In the words of a fellow poster...



Anyhoo, Darth Nuke, you tend to be a severe selective reader and listener. The simple point that myself and others is trying to get across is what Kreia's true role was.

Kreia was not out for revenge against all Jedi and all Sith. She was against the Revan/Malak Sith (I like how you singled it out like that) because they had betrayed her and she wanted revenge. And she was against the current Jedi because they were corrupt, they were arrogant, and yes, they were very complaicent(sp?).

The, now gone, Jedi of this era were 'corrupt' in the sense that they (like Atris) could not see if and how they were wrong about a great...many...things (Thank you, Palpatine, for the quote.) They were arrogant in the sense that they could not look beyond the Jedi Code and learn that maybe, just maybe, something was missing in their training, and that their teachings might have been the failing. And they were complaicent in the sense that they never truly assesed the threat of any of the wars that proceeded up to this point, and only "stressed caution" against going to war. I mean, truly, when did you ever hear a Master in K2 admit that the Council had a plan...or that they even devised one? Not one them did. Which tells me, correct me if I'm wrong, they were corrupt to the point that they would have happily 'sat in their halls while the Outer Rim worlds burned', so long as they need not go (besides a select few, of course.)

No, Kreia's goal was not to obliverate the Jedi Order. She wanted to 'fix' or 'correct' it...in a sense. She wanted to get rid of the arrogance and hypocracy that plagued it for so long, so that it might gain a little (if any) strength for what is to come. This is clearly seen through her actions against Atris. As Kreia simply put it, her flawed teachings needed to be ended before they began; before she spread her ignorance to others. Kreia, as the Jedi Historian, learned that the Jedi Code does not allow you learn all that which needs to be learned, if you are to know the truth of things. And with evey padawan she trained, she used that knowledge to their benefit and her's. Likewise, every padawan she trained was viewed as a failure. They would all eventually either leave the Order - seeing its arrogance and ignorance first-hand - or fall to the Dark Side. But lets face it...she did train the most powerful Jedi in that time. Sure, Revan was the Dark Lord of the Sith, but he was it by necessity. By seeing the Force through various shades of grey and not through solid white (Jedi) or solid black (Sith), he was able to see a future threat that he wouldn't have otherwise. With this knowledge, he sacrificed himself to the Dark Side so that he could eventually make the Jedi and Republic stronger for it. And Kreia taught the exile in very much the same manner. With the knowledge he learned from her, and with knowledge he learned from being completely cut from the Force, he gain new insight on the universe (and, awkwardly enough, the Force) that he was able to teach others. Teaching them either directly or through influence. These 'others' would be his party members who were the "Lost Jedi".

"They were the Lost Jedi, you know? Upon which the future will be built."
-- Jedi Master Kreia / Darth Traya

According to Kreia, the exile brought truth. Truth that would strengthen the Jedi Code, and build a better future for it. The last remaining Masters of the Council were arrogant enough to ignore it and condem it, and that is why - and what - she fought against them.

And her whole deal with "killing the Force"...she was going to do that for the soul purpose of seeing who could live without it. Like she and the exile did. If they could, then they were strong and would be needed. If they couldn't, then they deserved their fate. I don't agree with her on this, but that was her view nonetheless. Or atleast, these are my views on Kreia.

Now, if there are to be no Jedi or Jedi Council in the next game, then why does Kreia give you this insight (keep in mind, Light Side is canonical)...

Her quote: "They were the Lost Jedi, you know? Upon which the future [future of the Jedi Order] will be built."

When you ask the fate of Brianna, she informs you that she will assume Atris's role as the Jedi Historian and go on to teach others - newer, younger, Jedi - about the exiled Jedi who gave up the Force, and became stronger for it (by giving him a new view on the way things were...a human view.)

When you ask the fate of Mical she informs you that he will sit on the new Jedi Council (Jedi Master on the High Council? Maybe, maybe not...but on a Jedi Council nonetheless.)

Whether you ended the game as male or female, lightside or darkside, and whether you trained party members as Jedi or not, keep in mind that through the exile's bonds (as Kreia strongly emphasized) he had been teaching them all along, whether you knew it (meant to) or not. So, canonically, Brianna does become the Jedi Historian and train new Jedi. Mical does become a Jedi and does sit on the new Council. The other 'prospective jedi' party members do become Jedi as well. But whether they take on an role in the training of new students, or any active role in the Order period, is unseen. But these two we do know of for certain, and can count on.

Alright...I've talked enough...and if you can't get anythign from me, or from what's clearly explained in the game, then I've done all I can do. :(

easy? nope!

I killed everything that could get killed, depending on the allignment of my characters and i never picked up a single Double Bladed Lightsaber until right at the end of the game and i never picked up a single robe, which kinda made me not use any powers at all unless i wanted to be virtually defenseless.

So, i think they need to take away the random loot because it is killing the gameplay imo.

and what's all that bull**** mean? I already knew Kreias plan, but like I said, for her own ****ING mouth, she wished to get all her enemies out in the open so they could be destroyed.


And um, lightside might be canon, but the events on lightside might not be cannon. Therefore not all the party members might have become Jedi, and also just becuase Mical or Handmaiden, MIGHT, become great Jedi and sit on councils doesn't mean one DAMN thing in KOTOR 3. There aren't going to be any councils or orders in KOTOR 3, perhaps afterwards, but not during.

I tink that kotor3 shoud be when all sith on korriben come back to life and reven and malak command them to start a war.

Or reven tries to kill malak and malak kills her and he commands the sith army to kill any jedi's or exile's.

hmph
i thought having a jedi council would be awesome but now that i think about it more i think it'll go along w/ the k2 story much better w/ no jedi council. i mean when you think about the sith empire and weakened, very vulnerable republic and no jedi..... that's just gonna make an awesome story and one heck of a comeback if you're playing LS.

oh btw, i'll ask again but GOTO said that the republic would fall in 6 months (i think) and either go to the jedi or sith, so is the true sith empire gonna attack 6 months after the events in k2???

This is my Wish List

1)More realistic Game Engine so all people dont die in the excat same way
2)More Wookies
3)When you switch Light saber Style your fighting Motion Changes as well
4)A better love interest story (Handmaiden and Visas must Die)
5) Better Character Customisation not just 10 faces
6) Better Robes Like Revans Or Nihilus that cover all your body and make you look uber cool
7) You can kill your companions for getting to whiney (I wanted to kill handMaiden so much )
Better Developed Characters ( Nihilus made me cry :ph34r: )

Well I would love KOTR3 if it had al those in but it KOTR2 and 1 were still kickass games without them. I do realise that I would be asking alot with the Character killing but some of them really annoyed me

Yeh tell me about it.

I had a decent idea, but people nagged about it taking too long, i think a long development is good for a game.....but Lucasarts are abit cheap, so i doubt they would do it.

You should use every variant of the first two KOTOR-s endings to take the story to the "edge".

Like: Episode1 ending Good, Episode2 ending Good: There is a new jedi Council with members of the 2nd KOTOR (like Disciple), Revan is good, Taris had been saved, there are some survivors on it in an underground city(KOTOR1 mission), maybe Bindo is a member from the Jedi Council too?

Episode1 ending Good, Episode2 ending Evil: Revan is good, but there is no new Jedi Council, There is a new Sith Lord (the character from KOTOR2), some characters fight the Evil in the Galaxy (from Episode1), and so on...

Episode1 ending Evil, Episode2 ending Evil: The Galaxy is near the destruction, no JC, no Jedi at all(?)...

I realize, this would make minimum 4 timelines in one game, and VERY MUCH work, but this will bring the trilogy a perfect ending, and "fame" for OBSIDIAN, and I think this would be worth of it. :cool:

Some places that I would like to see:

Korrban
Coruscant
Planet of the Wookies(again )
Taris
Planet of the Twi'lek
Nar Shadda
Corellia
and the home planet of Princess Leia before its destuction
...maybe the planet with that floating City and the planet near the core. "

It would be nice too, if the main character could belong to other races(like Twi'lek or Bothan), more precise character outlook choices at the Char.making screen.

You are using the D20 system, no?
If yes, you could the player simply give the choice of multiclassing, and many prestige classes on top.

You can "spice" the game, if the player could go with no force sensitive character(like Scoundrel, Noble or Scout) to the end.

Remember, YOU'RE MAKING NOT JUST A GAME, YOU ARE BUILDING UP THE HISTORY OF STAR WARS BEFORE Episode 1! :ph34r:

You have many-many possible things to do with the game to make it a milestone, so use them.

Yea i agree on all off that but visas is a good ally.

i don't think we have much change going thru kotor 4 as non jedi or sith. admit it might be cool.

geeze take a chill pill nuke... no reason to get all hot and bothered.
I don't now if there will be a council, fully developed or ragtag group, none of us do, unless we are secretly working on it for LA. And seriouly, what are the odds of that.... (someone prove me wrong... please)

Anything is possible, remember, they have the advantage of time, so they can eliminate the "mights" regarding which chars became jedi, becuase they could just say they connected to the force after.

And I do not think people actually mean council, as in council as in jedi order.
There will probably be a bunch of guys who are semi-formally in kinda charge, but only becuase someone has to be.

And remember... its only a game... no need to get frustrated

Playing NPCs: I liked this in KOTOR 2, but it all happened too soon. After the prologue when I finally got into the game, I didn't want to play T3 again so suddenly. And playing AS Atton, making dialogue choices... weird. Weird. Weird. Having to terrifiedly pit him against two Twilek assassin chicks--cool. Having to choose dialogue--weeeeeeeeird.

Jedi Council: I like Dakari's ideas, actually. Seeing Disciple on it as Kreia predicted would be cool, as well as a Rakatan.

Revan and the Exile's Gender/Alignment/Appearance: Should NEVER be defined by anyone other than the player. Better that they not be seen or heard from or known again at all.

What would be nicer than anything, to me, is taking the best ideas from both and meshing them. Namely, making the third game truly about Revan and the Exile--where you create both characters and play them alternately, sort of like you played the party NPCs in KOTOR 2.

The game could do gender checks, chosen starting alignment checks, and a simple 'liking' check at the beginning of the game, then have the PC be assumed to be in a relationship with Bastila, Carth, Atton, etc. depending on the player's replies to those questions.

But of course my very favorite idea is having Atton back so that the Exile gets a chance to really _know_ him. That character and relationship needs redemption--or at least a chance for it. Hell, even if you make a new character, I'd like to see Atton back... after all, the Exile never got a chance to proclaim love for him, so Atton might be able to get over her. I'd rather see that than have him left out. He fascinated me, but there was so little of him.

Then again, that applies to all the characters... I don't mind new ones, but far better would be to see a return of Bastila, Carth, Atton, T3, HK-47, and others we grew to love. I would like to have them fleshed out more, especially the ones who were in KOTOR 2 because they had far less screen time. But don't make too many--I'd rather see about five with detail than ten without detail. Character development is important to me in an RPG. To make you feel like you're doing all this fighting for a reason, and you have loyal companions by your side at the most critical moments... THAT is what makes the game so great.

I really didn't much like having lots of Jedi on my ship, but not being able to bring a single one along in the last and most critical moments of the game. Not even two who forcibly volunteered, like Mandalore and Visas. Please... don't make the player end the game alone again.

One of the coolest feelings an RPG like KOTOR gives you is that you have connections to the world you're seeing around you. The absolute best and most compelling way to do that, to immerse the player, is to give them a chance to really interact with their party members.

i like your idea for three. me it will be bastila for Revan. and for the love life bring Mira for the Exile.

Hi all you KOTOR fans. This is my first time writting in a forum, so please, bear with me. =)

Improvements list:

- Better character design at the beggining (like in Jedi Knight, the face, eyes, hair, colors, race, etc....)

- The finess feats shouldn't exist. The dexterity modifier should ALWAYS be the one added to calculate hits, either
with melee or ranged weapons.
Since I think this point is going to cause much debate, I'll try to explain why I think that addind the strength
modifier (in melee) is a mistake.

Example: A guy has 4 times my strength. I have 4 times the dexterity he has with a blade. If we fight unarmed,
his strength will matter, yes, BUT, if we fight with blades I'll cut him open even before he has a chance to
use his superior strenght in his blows.

- Much more upgradable Jedi robes
- different saber hilts
- much more color crystals (gray metal, brown, dark blue, white, black)
- different fighting moves when using different styles
- Possibility of constructing lightsabers, sowrds, vibroblades, rifles
- There should be a toggle option allowing us to show or hide on the screen all the "buff" powers that are
afecting the character at that moment (wether he's in a fight or not)
- Possibility of seeing the influence VALUE the main character has with the others
- Possibility of buying our swoop bike and it's upgrades
- Add more wildcards to Pazzak
- Possibility of constructing belts that have special abilities (like a belt that makes you immune to
electrical, or fire, or cold or sonic)


Well, this is all I can remember for now.
Please comment on this. =)