Bioware/Bethesda appreciation thread, Let's think positive. Options

[Purkake]

Games and classic literature are still two different fields. Torment may have the best writing in a game, but comparing it to the best novel is still (somewhat) unfair.

It did what almost no other game could, and should be praised for that, in that category.

You don't compare novels to movies, do you?

This post has been edited by Purkake: Aug 24 2009, 03:05 PM

[Aristes]

Providing entertainment and amusement does not negate or exclude the achievement of cultural significance.

No, but there should be some account for purpose. Within the confines of game design, there is some restriction on the writer's prerogative. Add to that the fact that the games are far more interactive than movies, novels, or music, which the writer must take into account.

[WILL THE ALMIGHT...]

"there are plenty of companies who do worse writing, but not that many."

Actually, yes. BIO's writing is top of the line. None are better and some are equal, most are worst.

Off the top of my head, Obsidian, Irrational, Double Fine and Quantic Dream have better writers. Quite a few companies are about as competent as Bioware.

Add the guys who made Bioshock.

[Purkake]

No, but there should be some account for purpose. Within the confines of game design, there is some restriction on the writer's prerogative. Add to that the fact that the games are far more interactive than movies, novels, or music, which the writer must take into account.

Writing novels would probably be pretty different if the average reader only read ~30% of the total written content.

Add the guys who made Bioshock.

You mean the guys who copy-pasted System Shock 2's story and changed it a bit to be more steampunkish? Awesome job with that!

This post has been edited by Purkake: Aug 24 2009, 03:31 PM

[Pidesco]

"there are plenty of companies who do worse writing, but not that many."

Actually, yes. BIO's writing is top of the line. None are better and some are equal, most are worst.

Off the top of my head, Obsidian, Irrational, Double Fine and Quantic Dream have better writers. Quite a few companies are about as competent as Bioware.

Add the guys who made Bioshock.

Irrational Games made Bioshock, even if they were absorbed into 2K's corporate machine.

[WILL THE ALMIGHT...]

Ah, I see.

EDIT: Also they copy-pasted the gameplay and plot devices (and dumbed them down), but I really don't where you see the similarity between a rogue AI with a God complex taking over a space station and an underwater city (built by a man who got sick of the surface world's governments/organizations) going to hell because of radical new genetic mutation technology that gives everyone super powers. That and the plot twist not being the same at all.

This post has been edited by WILL THE ALMIGHTY: Aug 24 2009, 04:06 PM

[Pidesco]

Games and classic literature are still two different fields. Torment may have the best writing in a game, but comparing it to the best novel is still (somewhat) unfair.

It did what almost no other game could, and should be praised for that, in that category.

You don't compare novels to movies, do you?

Not in absolute terms, of course, but in relative terms definitely. Casablanca is a brilliantly written film and To a God Unknown is a brilliantly written book, however, what makes the movie brilliantly written and the book brilliantly written aren't the exact same qualities.

When I say Torment's writing isn't a good as a classic novel(say, Crime and Punishment), I'm talking about how the game and novel harness their respective mediums in order to tell their narratives and expound their themes. Game writing and design still has a very long way to go before games can be fairly and positively compared to other mediums.

[Purkake]

Ah, I see.

EDIT: Also they copy-pasted the gameplay and plot devices (and dumbed them down), but I really don't where you see the similarity between a rogue AI with a God complex taking over a space station and an underwater city (built by a man who got sick of the surface world's governments/organizations) going to hell because of radical new genetic mutation technology that gives everyone super powers. That and the plot twist not being the same at all.

I should have probably said plot devices. To me Bioshock was a game of unlimited potential that failed to live up to any of it. The idea was good, the setting and atmosphere were also good, but everything else just fell flat.

Not in absolute terms, of course, but in relative terms definitely. Casablanca is a brilliantly written film and To a God Unknown is a brilliantly written book, however, what makes the movie brilliantly written and the book brilliantly written aren't the exact same qualities.

When I say Torment's writing isn't a good as a classic novel(say, Crime and Punishment), I'm talking about how the game and novel harness their respective mediums in order to tell their narratives and expound their themes. Game writing and design still has a very long way to go before games can be fairly and positively compared to other mediums.

Sure, but books have had thousands of years to reach the greatness that they have. Games have only had 2 decades at best and you can't really just use a novel-style writing in a game, to make it good you have to take into account the medium's strengths and weaknesses just as with film.

This post has been edited by Purkake: Aug 24 2009, 04:16 PM

[Pidesco]

Sure, but books have had thousands of years to reach the greatness that they have. Games have only had 2 decades at best and you can't really just use a novel-style writing in a game, to make it good you have to take into account the medium's strengths and weaknesses just as with film.

And I'm not contesting that. That's actually my point and why I think that right now saying any game already released has outstanding writing is, not only shortsighted, but dismissive of the medium's potential.

[Purkake]

Sure, but books have had thousands of years to reach the greatness that they have. Games have only had 2 decades at best and you can't really just use a novel-style writing in a game, to make it good you have to take into account the medium's strengths and weaknesses just as with film.

And I'm not contesting that. That's actually my point and why I think that right now saying any game already released has outstanding writing is, not only shortsighted, but dismissive of the medium's potential.

You could say the best writing so far. Who says there won't be better books than the ones we have now?

[Darth InSidious]

... Why are people still trying to argue with Volourn?

[Volourn]

"Off the top of my head, Obsidian, Irrational, Double Fine and Quantic Dream have better writers. Quite a few companies are about as competent as Bioware."

Never argued that other comapnies were as 'competent' as BIO. However, none of those companies have 'better' writing than BIO's. They can arguably be equal; but better? Not. Espicially Obsidian. SOZ is proof of this. NWN2 OC is proof of this. KOTOR2 is proof of this.



"Why are people still trying to argue with Volourn?"

Why are you still trolling Volourn? At least the others are actually discussing the issue. You are just crying.

[Aristes]

I thought he was making fun of Pidesco.

Anyhow, there are still plenty of academes who refuse to consider The Lord of the Rings set as literature. I'm not exactly accusing Pidesco of being a snob, but there clearly is a bit of snobbery going around. After all, Beowulf fails in quite a few areas in comparison to other literary titles, and yet it's a classic. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest strikes me as rather lackluster, but it has had real durability. I think downplaying the achievements of previous games because of the potential you see in the medium is on the short rather than far sighted end of things.

[Darth InSidious]

"Why are people still trying to argue with Volourn?"

Why are you still trolling Volourn? At least the others are actually discussing the issue. You are just crying.

I didn't troll you, and if anyone's crying, it's you with your reactionary denunciation of my "trolling". I was simply pointing out that since you attempt to infallibly define everything and brook no contradiction, there's no point. As the rest of your post shows.

[Bos_hybrid]

Off the top of my head, Obsidian, Irrational, Double Fine and Quantic Dream have better writers. Quite a few companies are about as competent as Bioware.

No not really, the only one there that can match Bio is Obsidian. And then there best effort MOTB, had Mitsoda as the lead who as we all know, is no longer at Obsidian.

They can arguably be equal; but better? Not. Espicially Obsidian. SOZ is proof of this.

SOZ was never a game that was going to deliver a strong narrative with interesting characters.

NWN2 OC is proof of this.

NWN2 OC is far better then NWN. NWN wasn't even going to have an OC through part of it's development.

KOTOR2 is proof of this.

KoTOR 2 is proof of a rushed game. Nothing more, but even if it wasn't I still would of prefered the original.