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Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 18 2009, 05:44 PM

Now, Obsidian is great, I'm glad we all agree on that. But Bethesda and Bioware also do good things and I think it's time we put our hate aside and see the positive in those two developpers who just don't get enough love around here. I'm not saying we start treating every good thing they do as God's gift to gaming, but still...

Here, I'll start.

I like Bioware's voice actors. They're always pretty good, especially Jennifer Hale, and I like Carth/Kaidan's voice actor (mostly because he also played Scorch in Republic Commando.)
Bethesda makes some big open worlds that have some nice places to explore. Like Megaton. That was nice. Point Lookout's trippy mushroom scene was nice too.
Oblivion and Mass Effect were pretty.
Mass Effect's ending was very epic and enjoyable.

Posted by: CrashGirl Aug 18 2009, 05:59 PM

Bethesda made a great crpg in Daggerfall, then made a not so good one in MOrrowind, then they made a wretched crpg in Oblivion, but then they made an improvement with Fallout 3. SO for the first time in like 10 years they are on the upswing. Yay!

Posted by: Purkake Aug 18 2009, 06:21 PM

Well I liked BG2 and umm Jennifer Hale is pretty good.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 18 2009, 06:40 PM

BIO is the best RPG developer ever.

As for Bethesda goes, I have nothing good to say, sorry.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 18 2009, 06:44 PM

Well, none of their employees have been convicted of mass-murder.

Posted by: Kefeinzel Aug 18 2009, 07:13 PM

Bethesda sucks

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 18 2009, 07:38 PM

No. Male Shepard?


Hah. No.

Being positive, KotOR was a good game.

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 18 2009, 07:40 PM

I've deleted my memories of Male Shepard.

And I enjoyed Mass Effect's ending more than the rest of the game.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 18 2009, 07:42 PM

Yes, well it's hardly a challenge to enjoy something more than the majority of Mass Effect.

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 18 2009, 07:44 PM

Woah woah.

That's not positive enough.

Think happier thoughts.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 18 2009, 07:51 PM

Oh. Uh... I thought Jade Empire had some pretty area design?

Posted by: Gorth Aug 18 2009, 08:00 PM

There are several ways of interpreting that, not all of them positive

I loved BG2, BG1 wasn't too shabby either. Some day, I might be able to identify why I like BG2 so much.

Edit: Kotor was a fun enough game too for its time. Can't say much about Bethesda, too unfamiliar with their games in general. What little I tried didn't get me "hooked"

Posted by: Llyranor Aug 18 2009, 08:07 PM

Well, let's see.

BG2 high-level mage and dragon battles were fun.
Jade Empire had a pretty nice soundtrack.
David Gaider started writing novels and thus is spending less time making games.
Bioware helped Obsidian get rid of Ferret.
Bioware helped alanschu get over that married girl he had a crush on.

Bethesda got Obsidian to make New Vegas.
Morrowind main theme was pretty awesome.
You can improve your athletic skill by falling off a cliff.
"And then I ate her" http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=51242&view=findpost&p=910021
Bethesda as an entity has been a pretty convenient means through which to gather up all the most incompetent game developers into the same building.

Posted by: Deadly_Nightshade Aug 18 2009, 09:00 PM

Sigged!

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 18 2009, 09:50 PM

I really love that post, Llyr.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 18 2009, 10:50 PM

Baldur's Gate 2 is a fantastic RPG that IMO is unmatched in the genre.

Daggerfall is now free, So I'll have something more to add a bit later after I play it.
http://download.cnet.com/The-Elder-Scrolls-Chapter-II-Daggerfall/3000-8023_4-10964310.html

Fallout 3 really really looks the part where the world is concerned (except for Mr. handy).
*And its cool that we didn't get this on the box...


**Or this

Posted by: alanschu Aug 18 2009, 11:08 PM

ROFL it didn't hurt.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 18 2009, 11:11 PM

I know a poor chap whose wife divorced him (and one of her reasons was his playing Baldur's Gate ~a lot.)

Posted by: virumor Aug 18 2009, 11:15 PM

I've enjoyed all BioWare's & Bethesda's games that've come out... even Battlespire. And in the end that's all that matters to me. *shrug*

Sure there has been a downward trend going Daggerfall - Morrowind - Oblivion, but I'm optimistic Bethesda will redeem themselves with an eventual TES V... considering they brought out Broken Steel in reaction to outcries considering FO 3's ending, this gives good hope that a lot of Oblivion's design choices will be given a second thought and hopefully reversed.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 18 2009, 11:56 PM

Bioware was on of my favourite developers 9 years ago.

Bethesda was one of my favourite developers 12 years ago.







I'm not sure if these are positive, though....

Posted by: Volourn Aug 18 2009, 11:59 PM

" KotOR was a good game. "

ME > KOTOR + BG + JE + SS + MDK2

Posted by: Aristes Aug 19 2009, 12:03 AM

I appreciate these chumps with my money.

I guess, however, that an extra bonus is that I get to come on a message board with a bunch of folks and argue about them. That's probably my favorite thing. I'm also looking forward to New Vegas and Dragon Age.

Posted by: Morgoth Aug 19 2009, 12:05 AM

Bioware >> Bethesda.

That is all.

Posted by: Krezack Aug 19 2009, 12:13 AM

Well, Baldur's Gate 1 was good even if it was downhill from there.

Also, Bethesda is not the worst company in the game industry.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 19 2009, 12:31 AM

I can't think of any BioWare games that I've played that I haven't enjoyed.

Posted by: Niten_Ryu Aug 19 2009, 12:59 AM

While I'm not fan of Bethesda games, they have made certain kind of CRPG very popular for the new generation. I've seen tons of "fallout 3 is the best game I'm ever played" comments on popular game news sites and total sales of that game are huge. Better then any of the old skool CRPG.

Bioware is still best remembered by Baldur's Gate that started the very popular era of CRPG and Baldur's Gate 2 that ended it. NWN multiplayer was great for some and KotOR managed to bring Star Wars into CRPG. Now Bioware creates it's own worlds (always a positive thing) but it still remains to be seen if the manage to win over majority of gamers. ME was hard sale for me but thanks to multiple runs, they managed to win me over.

Posted by: Deathdealer Aug 19 2009, 01:05 AM

Bioware:

I have liked every game they have made (haven't tried Jade Empire). Only Mass Effect could have been a lot better.

Bethesda:

Um.. They know how to make a good open world engine. I just wish that they knew how to make a good game.

Posted by: Maria Caliban Aug 19 2009, 01:31 AM

*glances at thread*

It's a trap?

Posted by: Aristes Aug 19 2009, 01:34 AM

hehehe I don't think it's a trap. That doesn't seem like the Almighty one's style. Anyhow, I answered legit. I like their games. I guess I have to give Bethsoft the nod on the latest game, but I've enjoyed Bioware's games more on the long haul. NWNx has been a very uneven experience for me, but I enjoyed KotOR quite a bit and their other games I've played. I haven't played every game from either company, but it's all good.

Posted by: Hell Kitty Aug 19 2009, 01:45 AM

I've enjoyed all of Bioware's RPGs (except Jade Empire as I've not played it), as well as Bethesda's Fallout 3, the Elder Scrolls games (including Redguard, not including Battlespire) and a couple of those old Terminator games. Neither company has ever made anything that would make my own personal top 10 list but they've done a good job entertainin' me.

Posted by: Maria Caliban Aug 19 2009, 02:18 AM

Hmm..

Things I like about BioWare:
1. My female PC has been able to snog with a ninja princess and a blue alien girl*
2. The developers interact more with the community more than any others I know
3. Other than ME1, they've given a bunch of support and patches for their games
4. I never liked Star Wars or Jedi until I played KotOR
5. I like that they’ve invested in their own IPs and that they tried to escape the all consuming grasp of the publisher
6. Viconia is the only drow I don’t wish death upon.
7. Other than the original NWN, I’ve consistently found the followers interesting and entertaining. Yes, even Carth.
8. Other than BG, I’ve finished all their games and felt I got my money’s worth in story and gameplay.

*If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck

Posted by: Azure79 Aug 19 2009, 02:27 AM

I can't complain. I think I've played every Bioware game except shattered steel and always enjoyed them.

As for Bethesda, I've tried to like their games, but I never managed to finish one except Fallout 3.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 19 2009, 02:33 AM

On 7. You have a high tolerance for repetition.
On 8. I felt the exact opposite when NWN, Jade Empire and Mass Effect are concerned. In fact I rarely felt so cheated.

Things I like about Bioware.
They made the best cRPG series ever - Baldur's Gate.
I admire them for that, but those days are long over.

Things I like about Bethesda.
I've played only Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3. Oblivion was utter rubbish. Morrowind, they say, is much better, but I didn't stick around long enough to find out. Fallout 3 was a travesty.
I tried the former games but their control interface is beyond my patience.
Hmm I like nothing about bethesda.
Dang.
Except for the first feeling of going into a dungeon in Oblivion, a torch in one hand and sword in other. That was cool, up until the next dungeon.

Posted by: mkreku Aug 19 2009, 02:52 AM

I really liked Daggerfall.

That's all I got.

Posted by: Maria Caliban Aug 19 2009, 03:20 AM

This from someone who's played through BG. I recall taking down legions of kobolds, orcs, orges, gibberlings, wolves, bears, and skeletons with 1) shoot arrows, 2) pause every five seconds as you select a different target for your archers, 3) continue until the enemy gets near, 4) run off until they stop chasing you, 5) come back and shoot more arrows. That's 75% of the fights right there. Though when I was really feeling saucy, I had Minsc stand in the middle of a crowd while my archers picked the opponents off one by one.

After that, not even WoW quest feel repetative. You want me to kill 7 shadowboars and bring you eleven sabercat talons? Sure. Sounds fun.

Posted by: Mikael Grizzly Aug 19 2009, 03:28 AM

What's so bad about Male Shepard? He's acceptable, not groundbreaking, but acceptable.

BioWare has good dialogue writers, designers, their game engines don't suck, the characters are quite enthralling and even if the story's built on cliches, it's enjoyable.

Bethesda has great environment designers, concept artists and 3D modelers. Some of the quest design is priceless too. But their writers, storytelling and voice actors suck monstrous donkey balls.

Posted by: Oner Aug 19 2009, 03:34 AM

I loved MDK 2.

I loved those 15 minutes of Morrowind when a friend o' mine got his plate mailed, two handed axed ass handed to him by a naked, barehanded barbarian. And oh yes, poking attack animation with an axe. Hilarious.

Posted by: virumor Aug 19 2009, 03:36 AM

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Hlormar_Wine-Sot?

Posted by: Oner Aug 19 2009, 03:39 AM

Yep, 'twas him.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 19 2009, 04:35 AM

Lol. No.


**** no. Only in comparison to Bethesda. They have lazy writers. I could cite everything they've made from NWN-onwards, KotOR included, but why bother? It's so obvious it doesn't bear repeating.


Designers of what? Their area designs are usually pretty enough, I'll grant you, and their characters/textures too, but theres always about six character models and two guns repeated throughout the game.


Mass Effect, KotOR at release.


Are you Volourn's alt or something? There is nothing enthralling in any of the characters in either JE or ME, and KotOR's, six years on, seem pretty thin too.


Mass Effect.

Posted by: CrashGirl Aug 19 2009, 04:37 AM

Holy Crap, I had forgotten how seriously ugly the unmodded character models in Morrowind were.

Posted by: Krezack Aug 19 2009, 04:39 AM

Wow, you were pretty **** at the game.

Posted by: Krezack Aug 19 2009, 04:41 AM

Counter-example: Jolee.

And Assassin Droid.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 19 2009, 05:01 AM

One two-note character in a sea of one-note characters does not equate to good quality characters.


HK wasn't funny.

Posted by: Aristes Aug 19 2009, 05:10 AM

I despise HK. I did enjoy KotOR, though, so I don't agree with the harsh on Bioware.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 19 2009, 05:28 AM

I meant repetetivness in terms of story and characters, situations, quests, plot arcs etc.

Anyway what you describe are (cheap) tactics which actually require some sort of effort. In terms of gameplay, NWN, KOTOR, Jade Empire and Mass Effect had the most boring combat ever devised. The only thing needed to win was participation and you could only gain a measure of satisfaction/feeling of accomplishment if you were a total beginner or just plain bad at playing games.

While combat was an important part of BG it was not the only thing the game had. Unlike WoW, which you yourself said was a game of "fantasy combat".

Posted by: Cloaker Aug 19 2009, 05:51 AM

BioWare
I've enjoyed all of their games, even Jade Empire. For mainstream WRPGs, for me, they're at the top. I also like how much they interact with their community. We'll see how things go with their next 3 titles.

Bethesda
I like their use of Jeremy Soule, and Morrowind was ok

Posted by: Kelverin Aug 19 2009, 06:49 AM

BioWare - BG, BG2, Kotor were pleasurable experiences, BG2 first play through was the highlight of my Crpg enjoyment. Subsequent playthroughs have diminished my enjoyment somewhat, but I was unable to stop playing that game when it was released. NWN and it's expansions were terrible, have not played any of their other games.

Bethesda - Played FO3 and Morrowind and they were terrible the less said the better.

BioWare > Bethesda in a landslide victory.

Posted by: Hurlshot Aug 19 2009, 07:03 AM

You guys really are not very good at appreciation threads.


Bioware - When I found out that I was an evil sith lord in KotOR, I was taken completely by surprise. Bravo! I look forward to Dragon Age, I am sure I will devour it like every other Bioware title. Bioware is one of the only companies that consistently lets me avoid fighting in their games by having a high speech skill, and that rocks.

Bethesda - Daggerfall was one of the first games that really made me feel like I was living in a virtual world. It was my first really satisfying sandbox game. There was a time when RPG's and top of the line graphics only met in Bethesda titles, and I would say they forced other developers to rise to the challenge. Fallout 3 was a blast!

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 19 2009, 08:52 AM

I agree with Hurlshot. I did not see KotOR's twist coming.

Posted by: CrashGirl Aug 19 2009, 10:23 AM

I must be misreading or misinterpreting something.


Daggerfall was not top of the line graphics. It was considered ugly as sin on the day of its release. That and its bugs were the 2 big knocks against it.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 19 2009, 10:31 AM

I remember reading one online review at the time of release which said Daggerfall had awesome graphics. And it wasn't even that positive about the game. It was weird.

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 19 2009, 10:32 AM

Bethesda games really mess with game reviewer minds.

Posted by: Hurlshot Aug 19 2009, 10:38 AM

Morrowind was the big one I was referring to. The big deal with Morrowind was that FPS games were king at the time, and Morrowind was really the only non-shooter that was competing with the FPS games on a graphical level.

NWN came out at the same time, which had it's charms graphically, but it wasn't going to be confused with any FPS games.

Posted by: virumor Aug 19 2009, 10:43 AM

The first Tomb Raider game blew everything away in the graphics department around the time Daggerfall came out.

Posted by: CrashGirl Aug 19 2009, 11:00 AM

OK that makes a lot more sense. MW definitely raised the bar on crpg graphics. To this day, some of the best looking water in a rainstorm I've ever seen in a game. But while it had pretty great enviormental graphisc the character models and hair and faces were terrible. Plus the environmental graphics were so static that it was almost like running round in a painting.


I would say it was really with Oblivion than Bethsoft and crpgs and top notch graphics become so connected.

Posted by: CrashGirl Aug 19 2009, 11:05 AM

Daggerfall came out when the crpg was at a pretty low point. A year or two later would give us Might and Magic 6, Fallout, and Baldur's Gate.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 19 2009, 11:32 AM

It... did? Like what?

Seriously, Infinity Engine games may be in 2D, but they look a hell of a lot better than NWN1.

Posted by: Hurlshot Aug 19 2009, 11:58 AM

People were able to do some pretty amazing things with the NWN toolset graphically. I found many mods to be fairly stunning.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 19 2009, 12:00 PM

Its great except that its kind of like making a photo realistic, havoc enabled Tetris; The result is undeniably beautiful, and focuses most on what's least important.

FO3 is the best of TES4 with a new coat of pixel paint, minor derived gameplay changes, & copious digital gore. I just don't see anything that I liked of the original games in it. Though the landscape is phenomenal!

Posted by: Purkake Aug 19 2009, 12:04 PM

But it made great strides in the bouncy cleavage™ technology.

Posted by: kingofsquid Aug 19 2009, 02:39 PM

Um...... Bioware killed KOTOR. I despise them.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 19 2009, 02:41 PM

They also gave you KOTOR.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 19 2009, 02:41 PM

Instead of KotOR III you are getting KotOR 3-7 all at once!

Posted by: kingofsquid Aug 19 2009, 02:43 PM

HAHHAHA! And for those who do not have an MMO-capable computer? Besides, Kotor 1 sucked in comparison to even an unrestored, unmodded, TSL.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 19 2009, 02:46 PM

A non MMO-capable computer is pretty much a non-capable computer.

Posted by: kingofsquid Aug 19 2009, 02:47 PM

Well, this was able to play both Warcraft 3 and TFT.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 19 2009, 02:48 PM

Which were released 7 and 6 years ago, respectively.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 19 2009, 03:20 PM

I wouldn't bother arguing with Volourn.

Posted by: kingofsquid Aug 19 2009, 03:20 PM

Well, look at some of my sysspecs in the WoW thread.

Posted by: PastramiX Aug 19 2009, 03:36 PM

Whoever designed the Sunri murder trial in K1 should get an award. That was the best quest in that game, and is definitely a good example of a more morally ambiguous quest.

Other than that, they made KotOR, which Obsidian improved tenfold with K2. Same goes for NWN2 (Particularly MotB), BG2, and PS:T.

....

Yes.

Posted by: kingofsquid Aug 19 2009, 03:50 PM

Obsidian did improve KOTOR 10-fold. I like your attitudde.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 19 2009, 04:40 PM

~Or those that refuse to play MMO's.
Me, I refuse any game that lacks a decent single player campaign and/or won't work on my current hardware.
*Or one that requires an internet connection for anything except optional multiplayer.

Actually there are quite a few places in the US where you can get a really good computer, but cannot get really good internet connectivity. Quite a lot of folks are stuck with Dial-up for simply not having the option of DSL or cable.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 19 2009, 04:55 PM

Check out the World of Warcraft thread, it's not a good computer.

Posted by: kingofsquid Aug 19 2009, 05:04 PM

Speaking of which, WoW does not have a single-player subscription-free campaign, i think. DOES IT?

Posted by: GreasyDogMeat Aug 19 2009, 05:14 PM

Bioware - While I hate their direction lately, they did make Baldur's Gate, the Infinity Engine, Neverwinter Nights and Knights of the Old Republic, some of the best RPGs. I also do enjoy Mass Effect for what it is.

Bethesda - Fallout 3 rocks. It aint perfect of course, but I had a blast with it.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 19 2009, 05:19 PM

I don't think so...I finally tried the game after they begged me, and after 20 minutes I thought, "this is it ???"
I quit and let the rest of the 10 day trial expire.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 19 2009, 07:00 PM

Then why so mad that BioWare is NOT making a KOTOR 3?

Posted by: Maria Caliban Aug 19 2009, 09:44 PM

What? It's a cheap tactic that will win a huge amount of fights. It's one of the reasons BG II was a much better game.



Nope. It's an MMORPG. Why would it have a single-player campaign? You might want to try something like Guild Wars, which has no subscription and is highly instenced.

Posted by: bhlaab Aug 19 2009, 10:23 PM

-Planescape Torment used the Infinity Engine
-Bioware at least look like they're trying
-Baldur's Gate was a respectable game
-Bioware is quite good at character animation, cutscene direction, voice acting, even dialogue
-Neverwinter Nights, while having a lacking OC, was a very interesting new direction to take in terms of online gameplay and editing tools

-Morrowind was great if you don't try to pretend it's an RPG
-Fallout 3 could have been worse
-Oblivion could have been, uh, unmoddable
-The Bethesda message boards are run by very... efficient moderators
-Bethesda's creative directors are very competent businessmen

Posted by: Oner Aug 20 2009, 12:53 AM

Didn't you misread there something chief?

Posted by: aries101 Aug 20 2009, 12:56 AM

I like Bethesda for the great ability to make open ended sandbox game where you can do pretty much what you want to do; I haven't even started the maian quest in Oblivion as of yet (on my second or third playthrough). I also like Bethesda's way of delivering a very nice visual world that adds to the storytelling; sometimes I wonder around at night (in the game, I mean), and look up at the sky; very beatiful it is, especially with the two moons hanging over me....

I like Bioware for the great way of telling compelling stories which really touches the heart and the head at the same time; the dialogue choices they give are somewhat more meaningfull than in any other game(s) I have played. When I play, I just want to find out what happens next - in the story. Bioware's voice actors are among the best in the industry, I agree completely. edit: Writing memorable characters that almost everyine remembers is also one of Bioware's strongest sides.

Posted by: CrashGirl Aug 20 2009, 03:38 AM

This board is definitely not Bethesda friendly, no matter how much we try.


Which is too bad since they are the biggest wrpg maker out there, atm. But they dig their own grave really.


It's a good sign that FO3 gets some positive reception here though.


Is Oblivion the most bashed game on these boards? Possibly.


I'm really curious to see what happens with ES V. WIll it be a move forward from Fallout 3? Or a regression back to Oblivion style of play?

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 20 2009, 04:38 AM

I wouldn't say Fallout 3 was a move forward. I'd call it a move sideways into Bioware and Obsidian territory. So I'd imagine ES V will be Oblivion, just as lifeless but a bit smaller, with less options and about the same number and type of fetch quests.

I hope they'll pick up the ball again and move the open world type RPG forward, but I'll be really surprised if they do.

Posted by: bhlaab Aug 20 2009, 05:08 AM

Really? Because what stood out for me in Fallout 3 and Oblivion was how so much of what I wanted to do was artificially blocked because they didn't want to have to design around silly things like the player thinking outside of the box

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 22 2009, 12:53 PM

It just seems to me that the upper management there tries to cater too much. They seem to want a superior seller instead of a superior product (and those are not always one in the same ~Or in some instance even possible).

For me, Arx Fatalis is an Oblivion killer ~Its not as big, not as demanding (machine-wise), has equal but different art (though... the Stone Golem looks quite like the Atronach, only Arx shipped in 2002) ~Design-wise I prefer the creatures in Arx to Oblivion, and the subterranean environments (which is the only fair way to compare ~Since Arx has no surface world in the game).

Arx did not sell as well as Oblivion, but it is IMO the better game, (and its even an unofficial sequel to Ultima Underworld, but they never got the license).
*Personally I consider the better RPG as well, but for many that term outright requires that they be allowed to create their own PC ~but which for me there is no such requirement for RPG's.

Here is a small excerpt from the manual that shows the drive behind the game.

QUOTE

A Few Words From The Developers
Arx Fatalis has been dear to our hearts for many years. It was the project that
inspired us to found Arkane Studios. Arx was not created solely to make us a lot of
money, it was created because we are gamers and have a genuine passion for games
that carry us off into dreams of lost worlds. As far as the philosophy of the game is
concerned, we see Arx Fatalis as a profound role playing adventure. So lean back,
relax, and start exploring the world of Arx Fatalis – and don’t forget to take the time
to experiment.
Arx Fatalis is full of surprises, both small and large, that are just waiting to be
discovered. We hope that you enjoy the world of Arx – we put our hearts, minds and
a lot of work into its creation.
“The Team”

Posted by: Purkake Aug 22 2009, 01:01 PM

I wouldn't call Oblivion demanding, the game is three years old.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 22 2009, 01:05 PM

Did I?

ARX system requirements are less demanding than Oblivion's.

Posted by: kingofsquid Aug 22 2009, 01:05 PM

Then again, TOR may also be the most bashed game (especially in the TSL forums, or now forum). And um I ain't mad at Bioware because it ain't makin Kotor 3, I'm mad at it because it is killing the chances of Kotor 3 with an MMO that might possibly(hopefully) flop....

Hey, never played Oblivion, but loved Morrowind, at least in the massive amount of area and RPG elements (it had everything). The only problem was that it was TOO big, couldn't find jack snot unless I stumbled upon it by accident.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 22 2009, 01:06 PM

You said Arx is less demanding(machine wise), but it really doesn't matter in this day and age.

It's a fun game, but that really isn't a selling point anymore.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 22 2009, 01:11 PM

Its a point of admiration though... Its always best to do the relative most with the relative least, and its easier on the machine... See, you can play Arx Fatalis while rendering out a batch of 3d frames in Vray, or another renderer. You can play it on a 3 year old budget laptop too.

*And like I said, Arx Fatalis shipped in 2002.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 22 2009, 01:13 PM

Playing anything fullscreen while something cpu-heavy is running is usually a very bad idea.

It's like saying that Zork is a great game because it doesn't require any graphics. I'd say it's a good game in spite of having any graphics.

Posted by: bhlaab Aug 22 2009, 01:14 PM

Uhhhh, why? Unless your cpu is being cooled by a paper fan it should be fine.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 22 2009, 01:15 PM

Zork is a great game because it doesn't require any graphics.

Imagine Zork 2010 ~text based and done in pure assembly... but with the same system requirements as Fallout 3.
(or ASCII graphics perhaps)


The point of those games is pure imagination and response. Even drawing the dragon as cool as a pro illustrator is still their vision of a dragon and not the player's. (also though... Zork was designed for the early Personal Computers ~IE 4.MHz and a fiddling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilobyte amount of ram).

Posted by: Purkake Aug 22 2009, 01:22 PM

In my experience fullscreen stuff doesn't really like other resource-dependent stuff in the background. Possible issues include flickering and random minimization.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 22 2009, 01:23 PM

Fullscreen is less demanding than Windowed mode.

If you are running a fullscreen game designed for a Pentium 2, on a modern quad core system ~You have load(s) to spare.

Posted by: kingofsquid Aug 22 2009, 01:24 PM

Well, on the laptop I play Age of Mythology on, I start task manager just to check the CPU usage, and it's usually between 70 and 100%. And besides some stalling in the intro, it works FINE! That is what we're talking about, right?

Posted by: Purkake Aug 22 2009, 01:26 PM

Sadly I'm limited to two cores.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 22 2009, 01:31 PM

That's still twice what the game would usually expect.

Windows is multicore aware, but most software is not, and only wants one core ~and Windows happily runs two at a time across both or can be set to run one app on a specific core.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 22 2009, 01:33 PM

Just speaking from my experience.

Posted by: kingofsquid Aug 22 2009, 01:34 PM

.....Is this thread derailed?

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 22 2009, 01:40 PM

Bethesda made Fallout 3 multicore aware!


*But not really only technically

I don't really know much about it, but I gather that some effects are offloaded (or can be if so configured).

I never saw any performance gains for dual or quad core presence.

Pretty much.
I had mentioned Arx Fatalis as being less demanding (of resources) than Oblivion.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 22 2009, 07:47 PM

Based on what?

Posted by: Krezack Aug 22 2009, 10:30 PM

I've got two cores and 4gb of RAM. Regardless of my CPU speed and graphics card, my comp can consistently handle running two games at once at the same performance level it does if only one is open (typically flawlessly).

Posted by: Purkake Aug 23 2009, 03:43 AM

Total derail confirmed?

Didn't Bioware make MDK2? That was pretty sweet.

Posted by: Fighter Aug 24 2009, 11:48 AM

Bioware has good writing.

Posted by: Llyranor Aug 24 2009, 12:01 PM

It's an appreciation thread, not opposite day.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 24 2009, 12:51 PM

Bioware writes well?

Posted by: Fighter Aug 24 2009, 01:08 PM

That's what I'm doing.

Even if you have issues with Bioware writing there is no denying that they are leaps better at it than 99% of other companies.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 24 2009, 01:23 PM

haha. no.

there are plenty of companies who do worse writing, but not that many. Besides that's like a filmmaker bragging that his plots are better than those of porn movies.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 24 2009, 01:27 PM

"there are plenty of companies who do worse writing, but not that many."

Actually, yes. BIO's writing is top of the line. None are better and some are equal, most are worst.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 24 2009, 01:31 PM

Off the top of my head, Obsidian, Irrational, Double Fine and Quantic Dream have better writers. Quite a few companies are about as competent as Bioware.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 24 2009, 02:07 PM

Actually the latter three have very few games to their name. Psychonauts has almost no writing and little dialogue though it is a good game. Nomad Soul and Farenheit are well written but nothing remarkable. The same goes for System Shock 2 and Freedom Force. They might all be good games but their writing is nothing special at best, it never rises above the level necessary to sustain the plot. Its never outstanding in its own right, merely functional.

Obsidian has only one game that is superior in writing and thats MotB, and perhaps KOTOR II if it led to a meaningful conclusion.

So I don't really see your point.

Even though I hated Jade Empire for example I have to admit the writing is good. As for Baldurs Gate II/Throne of Bhaal no comment is needed. KOTOR, NWN, Mass Effect were weak.

Torment of course beats all of them.

Edit: ranked up it would be Torment>BGII>MotB - Black Isle>Bioware>Obsidian>Troika (VtM Bloodlines). The rest are light years away.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 24 2009, 02:16 PM

Farenheit still gives me flashbacks to the quick time events like some Vietnam war veteran.

Any game that doesn't have you save the world gets a +100 credibility in my book.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 24 2009, 02:22 PM

Writing isn't just the words on the paper. It's that, of course, but it's also plot construction, integration of themes, narrative and gameplay, and character development.

I'm not sure what you remember of Psychonauts but it didn't have that little writing. Of course, it didn't have as much writing as Bioware's games but still had more than enough to make a critical appreciation of it. Just the intro sequence, for example, was better written than anything Bioware has ever done.


I don't dislike Bioware, by the way. BG2 is one of my favourite games ever. That doesn't change my opinion that Bioware's writing is mostly just functional, including in BG2.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 24 2009, 02:30 PM

I remeber Psychonauts was an ingeniously concieved idea stuck in a mediocre platformer. The moments of pure genius like going into the mind of Napoleon, then the man with the obsession of being pursued etc were watered down by stupid gameplay, which didnt fit the maturity of the ideas presented. In the end it was unclear what the game was trying to be, and to whom it was supposed to appeal.

As for BGII the writing went from functional to outstanding, depending on the parts, which is to be expected in a game with that much scope. The fact that it is consistenly good is an achievement unto itself given its enormity.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 24 2009, 02:41 PM

I don't think any game has really outstanding writing, not even Torment or Grim Fandango. Writing in games has still a very, very long way to go.

Posted by: Aristes Aug 24 2009, 02:50 PM

Hey, Torment had some spots of great writing. So did Grim Fandango. However, games will always be games and the design team must sacrifice something in order to make it a game. That and both games had less stellar moments also. Still, there were outstanding moments in both games and several others. The cutscenes in Brutal Legend look quite good.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 24 2009, 02:50 PM

If by outstanding you mean on par with the classics of literature, then no, there isn't a game that has any cultural significance of that sort. But then that's hardly the goal:

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 24 2009, 02:58 PM

Providing entertainment and amusement does not negate or exclude the achievement of cultural significance.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 24 2009, 03:04 PM

Games and classic literature are still two different fields. Torment may have the best writing in a game, but comparing it to the best novel is still (somewhat) unfair.

It did what almost no other game could, and should be praised for that, in that category.

You don't compare novels to movies, do you?

Posted by: Aristes Aug 24 2009, 03:28 PM

No, but there should be some account for purpose. Within the confines of game design, there is some restriction on the writer's prerogative. Add to that the fact that the games are far more interactive than movies, novels, or music, which the writer must take into account.

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 24 2009, 03:29 PM

Add the guys who made Bioshock.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 24 2009, 03:29 PM

Writing novels would probably be pretty different if the average reader only read ~30% of the total written content.



You mean the guys who copy-pasted System Shock 2's story and changed it a bit to be more steampunkish? Awesome job with that!

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 24 2009, 03:51 PM

Irrational Games made Bioshock, even if they were absorbed into 2K's corporate machine.

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 24 2009, 04:02 PM

Ah, I see.

EDIT: Also they copy-pasted the gameplay and plot devices (and dumbed them down), but I really don't where you see the similarity between a rogue AI with a God complex taking over a space station and an underwater city (built by a man who got sick of the surface world's governments/organizations) going to hell because of radical new genetic mutation technology that gives everyone super powers. That and the plot twist not being the same at all.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 24 2009, 04:06 PM

Not in absolute terms, of course, but in relative terms definitely. Casablanca is a brilliantly written film and To a God Unknown is a brilliantly written book, however, what makes the movie brilliantly written and the book brilliantly written aren't the exact same qualities.

When I say Torment's writing isn't a good as a classic novel(say, Crime and Punishment), I'm talking about how the game and novel harness their respective mediums in order to tell their narratives and expound their themes. Game writing and design still has a very long way to go before games can be fairly and positively compared to other mediums.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 24 2009, 04:14 PM

I should have probably said plot devices. To me Bioshock was a game of unlimited potential that failed to live up to any of it. The idea was good, the setting and atmosphere were also good, but everything else just fell flat.



Sure, but books have had thousands of years to reach the greatness that they have. Games have only had 2 decades at best and you can't really just use a novel-style writing in a game, to make it good you have to take into account the medium's strengths and weaknesses just as with film.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 24 2009, 04:52 PM

And I'm not contesting that. That's actually my point and why I think that right now saying any game already released has outstanding writing is, not only shortsighted, but dismissive of the medium's potential.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 24 2009, 04:59 PM

You could say the best writing so far. Who says there won't be better books than the ones we have now?

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 24 2009, 05:18 PM

... Why are people still trying to argue with Volourn?

Posted by: Volourn Aug 24 2009, 05:51 PM

"Off the top of my head, Obsidian, Irrational, Double Fine and Quantic Dream have better writers. Quite a few companies are about as competent as Bioware."

Never argued that other comapnies were as 'competent' as BIO. However, none of those companies have 'better' writing than BIO's. They can arguably be equal; but better? Not. Espicially Obsidian. SOZ is proof of this. NWN2 OC is proof of this. KOTOR2 is proof of this.



"Why are people still trying to argue with Volourn?"

Why are you still trolling Volourn? At least the others are actually discussing the issue. You are just crying.

Posted by: Aristes Aug 24 2009, 06:00 PM

I thought he was making fun of Pidesco.

Anyhow, there are still plenty of academes who refuse to consider The Lord of the Rings set as literature. I'm not exactly accusing Pidesco of being a snob, but there clearly is a bit of snobbery going around. After all, Beowulf fails in quite a few areas in comparison to other literary titles, and yet it's a classic. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest strikes me as rather lackluster, but it has had real durability. I think downplaying the achievements of previous games because of the potential you see in the medium is on the short rather than far sighted end of things.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 24 2009, 06:10 PM

I didn't troll you, and if anyone's crying, it's you with your reactionary denunciation of my "trolling". I was simply pointing out that since you attempt to infallibly define everything and brook no contradiction, there's no point. As the rest of your post shows.

Posted by: Bos_hybrid Aug 24 2009, 07:09 PM

No not really, the only one there that can match Bio is Obsidian. And then there best effort MOTB, had Mitsoda as the lead who as we all know, is no longer at Obsidian.



SOZ was never a game that was going to deliver a strong narrative with interesting characters.



NWN2 OC is far better then NWN. NWN wasn't even going to have an OC through part of it's development.



KoTOR 2 is proof of a rushed game. Nothing more, but even if it wasn't I still would of prefered the original.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 24 2009, 07:37 PM

"I didn't troll you, and if anyone's crying, it's you with your reactionary denunciation of my "trolling". I was simply pointing out that since you attempt to infallibly define everything and brook no contradiction, there's no point. As the rest of your post shows. "

Sure you did. I'm far from the only one who 'attempts to infallably define everything and brook no contradiction'. Justa dmit, myou posted what you did in an attempt to get a reaction. You got one so stop crying over it.



"SOZ was never a game that was going to deliver a strong narrative with interesting characters. "

Poor excuse. It had writing and characters so its quality can be judged. Period.


"NWN2 OC is far better then NWN."

No, no it isn't. It's about equal.


"NWN wasn't even going to have an OC through part of it's development."

Totally irrelevant.


"KoTOR 2 is proof of a rushed game. Nothing more, but even if it wasn't I still would of prefered the original."

KOTOR wasn't 'rushed'. This is a myth. Obsidian knew how much time they basiclaly had from the moment they signed the contract.Nobody's fault but their own they seemingly (according to their fanboys) couldn't make due. That said, KOTOR2 isn't that bad either. In fact, it's about equal with KOTOR (which is overrated). *shrug*

Posted by: Killian Kalthorne Aug 24 2009, 11:33 PM

Bioware does formula writing. If you look at the basic plot lines of Bioware's games they tend to be very similar in design with minor variations here and there. With that criticism aside, they done quite well with that formula and have perfected it. Obsidian's writing tends to be more risky, and while they do adhere to some aspect of the base formulaic plot lines that have been long established since the 16th century, they try to bring in more complexity in their twists and turns in their games. There is some risk in that because sometimes it just doesn't pay off as well and the quality is more varied. However, the fact that Obsidian is more risky in their writing make me like them better than Bioware, but Bioware's quality is more than often very stable and fun, if not a tad predictable.

For Bethesda... Bethesda is way behind both Bioware and Obsidian when it comes to their writing, but they have made substantial improvements from Morrowind to Oblivion and Oblivion to Fallout 3. I would say, in development side, they are back when Bioware and Black Isle released the first Baldur's Gate and Fallout. Bethesda's writers still need summer school.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 25 2009, 12:20 AM

"with minor variations"

No.



"Obsidian's writing tends to be more risky, and while they do adhere to some aspect of the base formulaic plot lines that have been long established since the 16th century, they try to bring in more complexity in their twists and turns in their games"

What's so risky about Obsidian's writing?

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 25 2009, 12:21 AM

I personally lump movies, comics (european, not US superhero comics) and games in the same category and that is: primarily entertainment with the rare possibility of being art.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 25 2009, 12:21 AM

Art is art. None of things you listed are art.

Posted by: mkreku Aug 25 2009, 12:34 AM

If you need to ask, you'll never get it anyhow. Stick to McDonald's/Britney/Bioware, boy.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 25 2009, 12:56 AM

"If you need to ask, you'll never get it anyhow. Stick to McDonald's/Britney/Bioware, boy. "

That's the best you got? Calling someone 'boy'? I'll one up you. IF you think Obsidian's writing is 'risky' (btw, 'risky' does not equal good as I find Obsidian's writing good) then you judt don't get what 'risky' is, baby.

Posted by: Bos_hybrid Aug 25 2009, 01:05 AM

Not an excuse, it's a fact, doesn't change the lesser quality, but does explain why.




Agree to disagree.



No it explains why it is Bio weakest SP/OC effort.



It was rushed, by both publisher and dev. Lucasart wanted to quickly capitalize on the originals comercial success, Bio wasn't interested in doing a sequel, so it was passed to Obsidian. Obsidian, while the devs were experienced, was still a new company/team and as such not able to complete the game in time. Both are at fault.



I would say Oblivion was a step back from Morrowind, and FO3 was three steps forward.

Posted by: Fighter Aug 25 2009, 01:34 AM

There are some ridiculously high standards in here. Classic literature like Dostoevsky wasn't just "good", it was brilliant and then some. You people must be unhappy if you anything other than is the quality of "porn" to you.

No. I would only put Obsidian over Bioware in the writing department. Unfortunately the lack of polishing negates that. System Shock 2 had mediocre story.



There is no denying that KOTOR 2 was rushed. Whoever might be at fault it's blatantly obvious the game wasn't done.

Posted by: Morgoth Aug 25 2009, 01:52 AM

While Bioware games have a lot of writing, it's not necessarily the best stuff. System Shock 2, Psychonauts, Fahrenheit, MotB...heck even Bioshock (as mentioned by Pidesco) had a lot more impactful writing and more interesting characters.

In terms of story-driven games, Bioware already lost it's lead a long time ago. Something like Heavy Rain will crush Bio games easily in terms of story, subject and maturity. Compare the latest Heavy Rain http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-09-heavy-rain/54361 with the one from the latest Bioware http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/meet-grunt/327792 "I'm Grunt. I like killing stuff". Just sayin'.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 25 2009, 03:44 AM

When you bring up Fahrenheit as an example of anything, please specify the first half, because the second half is so horrible, it's not even funny.

As for the art argument, either everything creative is art or everything YOU think is art is art. There's nothing stopping something from having artistic qualities while still being entertaining.

Posted by: Meshugger Aug 25 2009, 04:08 AM

Trying to discuss with Volourn the merits of Bioware's writing compared to, well, any company, is like trying to have serious discussion about abortion with diehard pro-lifer. Nothing will come out of it.

Anyhoo, Bioware is like God, they give and they take. Sometimes they give us a blessing of life, like KotOR, and sometimes they take the very same life away from us to create a new life, like replacing KotOR III with ToR.

Bethesda have a good financial policy and merits for potential growth.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 25 2009, 04:16 AM

Mind you, that's a man that considers NWN series "the best ever".

Posted by: Morgoth Aug 25 2009, 04:20 AM

Yeah, the last third was complete rubbish. Guess Dave Cage didn't know what to throw out of the game to make it more cohesive. That AI stuff, intertwined with the temperature drop was completely artificial and rushed. He should have sticked with the Maya dude and make the conclusion there.

Still, overall nice effort. I liked the characters with the exception of Lukas, who was a bit too whiney.

Posted by: Meshugger Aug 25 2009, 04:20 AM

uh-huh.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 25 2009, 04:30 AM

Tyler "bail out" Miles wasn't all that great either, who the hell just leaves when the world is ending!? I'd say the idea was good, but it failed in execution. The quick time events were pretty horrible and the real "story" was straight out of loonyville. I could have taken some supernatural stuff, but that was way too much.

Posted by: virumor Aug 25 2009, 04:36 AM

And why do people think that Heavy Rain will be any different? Cage basically takes a psychological thriller, introduces some quick-time events during tense moments of said movie, and dares calling it a 'game'.

Posted by: Morgoth Aug 25 2009, 04:43 AM

You're wrong. Watch the latest gameplay videos (starring Scott Shelby), where there are 3 possibilies to deal with a single scene. Get shot and you have to live with the wound for the rest of the game. I though that was pretty impressive. If you think Heavy Rain is about running around and shoot people in the face, then you're wrong. Besides, the controls look very tight. For a Sixaxis Controller, that is.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 25 2009, 04:43 AM

I don't have a clue, it's just another PS3 exclusive that is supposed to "save" the PS3, but will probably fail miserably.

Just put it somewhere between Obama and GT5:

Posted by: Morgoth Aug 25 2009, 04:45 AM

The PS3 has better exclusives than the 360, that's for sure. Uncharted 2, heavy Rain, Last Guardian, Agent etc. I take that over some Halo or Fable bull**** anytime, anywhere.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 25 2009, 04:46 AM

Yeah whats up with that? There are so few games released for the PS3 and even less worth noting? A pity, considering how good the PS2 was.

I was actually skimming through Metacritic yesterday looking at what we (PC gamers) have missed out with the consoles and found myself surprised that:

a) everything worthwhile from the XBOX360 was already ported
b) the PS3 has almost nothing worth porting in the first place

Very few top notch exclusive titles are available for either console, and funnily enough I dont see myself crying over any of them. The consoles are as deep in **** as we are.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 25 2009, 04:47 AM

That hasn't helped with the sales much, which was the point.

Also, exclusives suck for both the customers(less chance that they can play it) and the developers(less money on sales).

The PS2 was pretty much a monopoly in the last generation, now Microsoft is pretty much eating their lunch with a console that breaks every so often, doesn't have a Blu-Ray player or even wifi built in.

Posted by: Morgoth Aug 25 2009, 04:58 AM

Heavy Rain is the only console exclusive game I really want right now. But I'm not gonna buy a PS3 for a single game. I just hope it gets ported to the PC.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 25 2009, 05:01 AM

It will be fun to see what happens when it comes out, but the whole thing screams of an awesome idea, a good sales pitch(ala Molyneux) and a totally horrible final product.

I'm really interested if the devs managed to restrain themselves and keep the supernatural BS out this time, it would be so hilarious if they couldn't.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 25 2009, 05:54 AM

No, I asked a question in the hope of getting an answer. You can tell by the question mark. As for 'crying', you've made two posts so far whinging about my question, so I'll advises you to stop projecting.

Posted by: Hurlshot Aug 25 2009, 06:30 AM

I bought the PS3 for MLB 09 The Show, and it really is awesome.


You guys are still terrible at appreciation threads.

Posted by: virumor Aug 25 2009, 09:35 AM

Cliffracers.

/thread

Posted by: Aristes Aug 25 2009, 09:43 AM

hahaha

Anyhow, I wish I could work the controler to save my backside, but I can't. So, no 360 or PS3 for me. I already have a blu ray disk. I don't have time to play the games I already own for the PC. I refuse to have another piece of equipment in my house that I don't use regularly. I remember five years ago one of my friends telling me that we'd only have one system within five years that would be like all the available consoles, the PC, and a home theater system put together and that our conventional PCs would be gone. I figure that's going to happen within the next five years.

Looks like this thread has officially morphed, huh?

Posted by: TwinkieGorilla Aug 25 2009, 11:26 AM

just read the title of this thread and lol'ed in my pants!

Posted by: Morgoth Aug 25 2009, 11:27 AM

OT: Anyone looking forward to InXile's next RPG (rumored to be Wastelands)? Jason Anderson of Troika fame is working there.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 25 2009, 11:43 AM

"Trying to discuss with Volourn the merits of Bioware's writing compared to, well, any company, is like trying to have serious discussion about abortion with diehard pro-lifer. Nothing will come out of it."

The samed can be said about those who hate BIO. Hard to have a seriously legit discussion with them.



"Mind you, that's a man that considers NWN series "the best ever". "

K. Must explain why I rated NWN OC 75%, called SOU overrated, and HOTU as good but far from 'best ever'. Why do people feel the need to lie, and make up fairy tales?

Posted by: Morgoth Aug 25 2009, 11:45 AM

Your sig...

Posted by: Volourn Aug 25 2009, 11:47 AM

Which doesn't proof anything since last i checked the discussion was about *writing* not the entire package. Afterall, NWN 'series' includes NWN2 right? Which is *not* a BIO game last I checked...

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 25 2009, 11:48 AM

The ignore list exists for a reason, and that reason is Volourn.


PS: And sometimes me.

Posted by: steelfiredragon Aug 25 2009, 12:04 PM

Bethseda is a good bunch of developers, so are OEI and Bioware.

even amongst all the bugs, I have had enjoyable times playing their games.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 25 2009, 12:10 PM

So the entire package, up to SoZ its the best ever?

Posted by: Cl_Flushentityhero Aug 25 2009, 02:45 PM

I like Bioware and Bethesda RPGs. Maybe if the WRPG market were more flooded I could be picky about their bland NPCs and weak story, but the truth is that I enjoy playing their games anyway.

Posted by: Gizmo Aug 25 2009, 05:48 PM

I am.

I have nothing against them personally, but I've not liked a single game of theirs since they retired the infinity engine.

Posted by: Killian Kalthorne Aug 26 2009, 03:54 AM

So, you give NWN 1 OC a grade of C. Same here. However, I do think that SoU was better than the NWN1's OC.

Posted by: ramza Aug 26 2009, 04:42 AM

Obz, Bio and Beth are all dead meat to me... I do not enjoy any of their newer games...

Posted by: Morgoth Aug 26 2009, 04:46 AM

But certainly you're gonna give AP a try? It's their first "real" game. No sequel, but their thing.

Posted by: Llyranor Aug 26 2009, 04:56 AM

Not enough animu with big eyes and no nose.

Posted by: ramza Aug 26 2009, 08:03 AM

Nope, I find both the setting and the gameplay to be appalling...
I am not looking for pseudo-rpgs, yet it seems this is what the market offers these days... I am pretty disappointed with the way the rpg market has become. All I am looking for is to get a similar experience as in the IE games... To this date, among the most recent games, only NWN2 provided me this. I may give a try at Dragon Age but it will probably be the last Bio game I will be playing as the company is merely a shadow of its past glorious self.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 26 2009, 08:10 AM

I guess sitting in a corner, crying and cutting yourself while listening to Linkin Park is way more fun.

Posted by: Morgoth Aug 26 2009, 08:10 AM

Oh my. Too many people still holding a grip in the past.

Posted by: ramza Aug 26 2009, 08:39 AM

I have simply moved on from playing to RPGs to playing other games like Total War or adventure games. The RPG era has reached the end for me. There's simply no game that has managed to grasp my attention. I may try Mass effect trilogy when they release a triple combo pack in a few years but that's it. Moreover, don't count on me buying the next d&d game if it uses the dreaded 4E rules.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 26 2009, 08:44 AM

You make it sound so tragic.

You can play TW games, adventure games and RPGs. Playing all of them is pretty sweet.

Posted by: ramza Aug 26 2009, 10:09 AM

I not making anything tragic. I just don't like today's rpgs. You cannot deny that there has been a steady decline after 2000...

Posted by: Purkake Aug 26 2009, 10:12 AM

Maybe your expectations are too high?

Posted by: Hurlshot Aug 26 2009, 10:13 AM

I can deny that.

There you go, I just did.

Posted by: Maria Caliban Aug 26 2009, 10:13 AM

He might not be able to, but I can.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 26 2009, 10:16 AM

If we deny him three times, will he explode in a puff of smoke?

I'd say it's arguable

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 26 2009, 10:18 AM

Actually there has, judging from my list. bear in mind it was never a large genre in the first place, but roughly its shrunk by at least 30%. That's speaking in terms of quantity of games released. In terms of quality it hasn't declined - its plummeted.

(counting full games only)
1998 - 5
1999 - 7
2000 - 14
2001 - 7
2002 - 11
2003 - 5
2004 - 9
2005 - 11
2006 - 6
2007 - 8
2008 - 7
2009 - 2 so far

Actually I take back what i said, in terms of quantity it has a rythm of sorts, a spike every few years, except for the last few.

Edit: it is deceptive though, all 2005 games are complete rubbish except for the Gothic Ii expansion as are the 2002 games (NWN and Morrowind are the highlights of that year... yay)

Posted by: Aristes Aug 26 2009, 10:19 AM

At least you appreciate being able to come here and rant about the experience? Right? Good ol' Ramza. I feel the same way about text adventures. Gone completely downhill over the past several years.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 26 2009, 10:21 AM

There was a website which collected all kinds of indie text adventures and some of them were supposedly pretty awesome.

Posted by: virumor Aug 26 2009, 12:40 PM

If there's any game genre that hasn't declined, it's the chess software. Even grandmasters get their asses handed to them by computers nowadays. Programs like Fritz are so advanced that they even come with their own 'taunt' function when you make crap moves.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 26 2009, 12:42 PM

They might just as well give up on chess.

The next big thing is GO, which has so many possible combinations that it won't be solved for a while now.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 26 2009, 03:09 PM

They'll keep going on chess because it hasn't been solved yet (and likely won't be for a long long long time).


Go just makes AI's implode.

Posted by: mkreku Aug 26 2009, 04:49 PM

That's hilarious. Yeah, people lie and make up fairy tales! It's so bad you can't even trust your own signature!!

Dumb doesn't even begin to describe it.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 26 2009, 04:54 PM

He did get me there. I was at a loss for what to say.

Posted by: Lucian Aug 26 2009, 11:35 PM

Want to rant go start a rant thread provided its kept civil.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 12:30 AM

"That's hilarious. Yeah, people lie and make up fairy tales! It's so bad you can't even trust your own signature!!

Dumb doesn't even begin to describe it."

Still crying?

Think the NWN series is 'the best' does not neccessarily mean you think it has the 'best writing' and since we're disucssing writing, and writing was the issue. Plus, the NWN series wasn't just made by BIO. It includes the Obsidian developed NWN2 so all this proves is I like BIO, and Obsidian both. *shrug*

Use. your. brain. crybaby.

And, oh. As for 'dumb', it takes one to know one. L0L0L0L0LLIGAG!

Posted by: ramza Aug 27 2009, 05:07 AM

Even though say that NWN1 was crap, my overall experience with it was quite enjoyable. The OC and both expansions (which were ok), the fan-made modules (which gave a whole new dimension to the game) and the online gaming (persistent worlds mainly) kept me busy for hundreds of hours and plenty of years which is something no game has achieved so far.

Moreover, the fact that you controlled only one character was the little thing that brought the game closer to the p&p experience. NWN2 was nice with its little parties of 4-6 characters but I admit that I grew tired of all the micro-management. NWN1 was more satisfying on this issue.

Just as the Codex says, developers these days just talk about "dark, mature and gritty" games and "new-generation" gameplay. This is nonsense. The old recipes worked just fine and would not have alienated the core fanbase (which I am part of).

If Obz decided to produce BG3 or TBH, I would be supporting them 100%, but their most recent projects are simply bleh... Same goes for the other companies...

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 27 2009, 08:11 AM

It was also the huge thing that turned NWN single player into a horribly boring experience.

Posted by: ramza Aug 27 2009, 08:30 AM

If the henchmen were better done, this wouldn't have been a problem. You should have been able to control them just like in NWN2 but without being able to control their level up choices.

Posted by: Deadly_Nightshade Aug 27 2009, 09:47 AM

That was only because the henchmen, and henchwomen, were not very well done for the most part - one or two of them were, in fact, good.

Posted by: Monte Carlo Aug 27 2009, 10:18 AM

I like both single-player and party CRPGs altho' I much prefer party-based games.

Artificial intelligence, at the moment, just ain't up to it. One day there will be intuitive, light-touch AI for NPCs. Until then, paty based games where you control to a greater degree what's going on will be, for me, the ideal.

NWN1 suffered from the simple design premise that one character plus an NPC should be able to master every challenge. This is contrary to what D&D was originally about (I know I bang on about this but it's a small unit fantasy combat / tactics game where classes replicate the rock-scissors-stone or cavalry-infantry-archers idea). If you say "this is a D&D game" people will, not unreasonably, expect the classic D&D elements. OK, if you moved the whole concept away from dungeon with multiple challenges (i.e. where you need a thief, a cleric and fighter and a magic-user) to one that is neutral then fine. But in NWN1 they didn't. Notice how NWN mod-makers make extremely good single-player mods and fearlessly add the caveat - "this mod is intended for a thief type character." That works. You play a cleric at your peril. Even though it's single-player it feels like D&D.

The result of the single-player compromise in NWN1? It was my single-classed thief and the Bard NPC chick (who I thought was very well done) put a melee smackdown on a Black Dragon. Please. I didn't feel like I'd been really clever or skilfull, I just felt that the game was gimped in my favour.

For all my moaning, at least Bio realise that enough people like the old-skool model and implemented it in Dragon Age.

Cheers
MC

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 27 2009, 10:25 AM

Imagine if you were playing P&P D&D with just one rolled character and a retarded DM. Is it fun? Well, that's the single player NWN experience.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 27 2009, 10:50 AM

Its not the old school model, its the only viable model when DnD is concerned. If anyone wants to solo they have Oblivion and Diablo, which were made for that.

Everything was wrong about NWN. Its graphics were bad, its interface was ugly, the storyline was generic, the characters...wait what characters?, the fighting was pointless since you couldn't lose, there were no tactics at all, overall it was a lonely and pointless endavour and I'm ashamed to say I didn't see that right until the very end of the campaign. The expansions that were hyped in an effort to fix this were average themselves, and only looked good when compared to the OC, which doesn't say much since the OC sits somewhere around Oblivion level. Also the Shadows of the Underdark were blatantly overpowered, and somebody should have told me to turn left at Albuquerque when i was slogging through the 200 hours of Bg+BGII+ToB to get epic level characters, because apparently it can be done in a fraction of the time.

As for the toolkit: if I wanted to play build my own adventure I would have bought a bucket of LEGO instead of forking 40 euros for this trash.



The ultimate toolkit.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 27 2009, 11:29 AM

Perhaps I'm simply lacking in patience, but I found NWN's OC so dull I couldn't get much beyond Port Llast. The "Fetch four magic animals" quest was bad enough - wandering aimlessly in some frankly rather ugly countryside, and seemingly-endless dungeons proved rather too great a tax on my attention-span. On the other hand, fresh memories of it made NWN2 seem like a masterpiece, warts and all.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 27 2009, 11:57 AM

NWN left such a strong impression in me, that every time a song from the OC started playing in NWN2 I had urges to quit the game. And sometimes I did.

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 27 2009, 12:03 PM

So is that a good thing?

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 12:20 PM

"Imagine if you were playing P&P D&D with just one rolled character and a retarded DM. Is it fun? Well, that's the single player NWN experience."

Actually, yes, it is fun. And, doable. There are even solo adventures officially puvblished for D&D.



"This is contrary to what D&D was originally about (I know I bang on about this but it's a small unit fantasy combat / tactics game where classes replicate the rock-scissors-stone or cavalry-infantry-archers idea). If you say "this is a D&D game" people will, not unreasonably, expect the classic D&D elements."

D&D cna be played with a 'solo' character and be quite fun. While 4 characters is the usual, it's far from the only number that cna be used. It's a myth to claim it's the only way to have fun with D&D.

P.S. NWN is awesome. And, the OC while not the greatest ever, is better than 90% of other D&D video games including SOU, SOZ, EOTB series, and tons more.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 27 2009, 12:29 PM

Most of which are simplistic, limited by technology and downright unplayable today. So what's your point? Being better than a pile of outdated ancient era games is some sort of measure of quality?

The only thing "awesome" is that they had the cheek to release it and stamp a "From the creators of Baldurs Gate" on the box.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 12:36 PM

"So what's your point? Being better than a pile of outdated ancient era games is some sort of measure of quality?"

SOU, and SOZ are anicent games? IWD2 is ancient? POR2 is ancient? TOEE is ancient? L0LZ

let's also not forget that NWN is now a 6+ year old game.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 27 2009, 12:39 PM

I would like you to explain in detail how SoZ and IWD2 are worse than NWN, especially considering that the main activity in these three games is combat.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 27 2009, 12:44 PM

NWN is better than IWD2? In what universe?
or
TOEE? This game, like IWD2 actually is DnD and has a small thing called party based tactical combat. NWN is what happens when DnD beds Diablo.

So a full game beats its own expansion and perhaps the worst DnD RPG ever made (POR2)? Yaay, there's probably an unlockable achievement for that.

Yes its 6 years old. Unfortunately Baldurs Gate is older. And better. In just about everything.

The criticism would never have been so harsh if NWN wasn't a generation behind the games released by the same company up to that time. It wouldn't even be so terrible only if there was any actual ambition behind it - so we could say: "look, they tried and didn't make it, better luck next time". But the only thing we can say is "look they saw Diablo II sales figures and went green with envy, and decided to slap together a Diablo of their own"

Posted by: Aristes Aug 27 2009, 01:22 PM

I actually liked TOEE better than NWN, although it was a toss up. I think both had potential that the design teams didn't achieve. I think I might have bought one of the NWN expansions but since I can't remember it, I might only have thought about it. Likewise, I played MotB. I think MotB was the highlight of the series for me. What I thought at the time was, "this is a great game, but I still see all the things that irritate me about the NWN engine and design." That's why I didn't bother with SoZ. I'm glad that the series is played out and they're going to... some sort of MMORPG or something now? Whatever.

Now, the Aurora engine (that's the one for NWN, right?) has morphed into other games, such as the Witcher and KotOR. So what was it about NWN that I just didn't like? Hell, I even played it with friends. I even created a room once and played around with DMing for folks. Just never really took. I enjoyed NWN for what it was, but by the middle of my second run my interests were waning. Considering how often I replay titles and how fast I used to go through them, that's not an A-list title for me.

Still nothing argues like success and the NWN franchise was extremely successful, not only for Bioware but also for Obsidian.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 01:26 PM

"wouldn't even be so terrible only if there was any actual ambition behind it "

L0L The last thing people should criticize BIo for when it comes to NWN is 'lack of ambition'. HAHAHAHA!

P.S. NWN is no more Diablo than BG2 is.


"And better. In just about everything."

Absolutely false.

Posted by: entrerix Aug 27 2009, 01:40 PM

nwn isn't even half as fun as diablo 1. let alone diablo 2.

BG2 and nwn 1 have almost nothing in common in my opinion except they both claim to be rpg's but only one of them really pulls it off

I refuse to believe those games were made by the same people.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 27 2009, 01:47 PM

Heh, I didn't mind NWN.

Maybe because I played through it MP? I did enjoy HotU.

Posted by: Deadly_Nightshade Aug 27 2009, 01:57 PM

NWN was a fun game, and it was only better if you had more than one person playing (in fact I bought several copies once it became cheaper so I could LAN). So, yeah, I agree with Alanshu.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 03:09 PM

"BG2 and nwn 1 have almost nothing in common in my opinion except they both claim to be rpg's but only one of them really pulls it off"

I agree. NWN is more of a RPG than BG2 will ever be. Thanks for admitting it.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 27 2009, 03:10 PM

For someone relatively respected in the RPG community such as it is, you say awfully stupid things.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 27 2009, 03:12 PM

Wait, someone respects him? Is it the troll clan that spawned him?

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 27 2009, 03:13 PM

who the what, now.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 03:13 PM

"For someone relatively respected in the RPG community such as it is, you say awfully stupid things."

1. Respected by who? Nobody.

2. I'm not here to be 'respected'. I'm here to exchange opinions and discuss games. I don't care if people like me. It's completely irrelevant as I'm quite happy with my RL friends (or do I have any? lolz, only i know!).

People on the interent simply cna't handle differing opinions. Afterall, anyone who disagrees with you has got to be stupid. Right?

P.S. I'm unimportant. Let's discuss the actual topic(s).

Posted by: alanschu Aug 27 2009, 03:27 PM

In terms of providing the player with a divergent set of choices for how to proceed through the game, I don't remember BG2 being as diverse as NWN was. Certainly not BG.

Been such a long time since I played either BG game though. Or NWN for that matter.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 03:28 PM

Exactly. Of course, BG2 is overall better than NWN OC but I've never argued otherwise.

Posted by: entrerix Aug 27 2009, 03:39 PM

how is nwn more of an rpg than bg2?

explain in clear terms so we can understand your apparent lunacy

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 03:56 PM

No, I won't. I don't respond in a civil manner to pitiful insults meant to troll with someone who doens't want to discuss but to simply exchange insults. Choose one or the other.

It's funny I'm the lunatic when even Alanshu is siding with me on this issue. L0L



"explain in clear terms so we can understand your apparent lunacy"

Seriously? Seriously. Why would I give you a clear example when all youa re doing is trolling to get a response so you can throw more lame insults my way instead of actual debate? L0L Pathetic troll attempt.

Stick on topic: NWN is better at *role-playing* than BG is. Period.

Posted by: entrerix Aug 27 2009, 03:58 PM

my lunacy thing wasnt an insult.

if you can actually explain it in clear terms then you clearly wouldnt be crazy...

it just sounds crazy when you say it so i want to hear your not crazy reasoning

if you have any

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 27 2009, 04:00 PM

Why is it whenever Volourn says anything, we start arguing about NWN?

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 04:05 PM

"my lunacy thing wasnt an insult."

Dunno about you but being called a lunatic isn't a compliment where I come from.



"if you can actually explain it in clear terms then you clearly wouldnt be crazy..."

Do a search on the Obsidian, BIO, Codex, Atari, and several other sites to find out why I think what i think about NWN. I don't feel like going into deep detail over a 6 year old game with people I know who won't agree anyways and will just use it as another lame reason for throwing insults.

They can do that with DA or ME2 since they're actually new.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 27 2009, 04:07 PM

Like I said, it's been a long time since I played either game, but from what I remember NWN was better at allowing your character to progress through the game in a slightly different way. Particularly through skill checks in conversations. The thing I always found silly about BG1/2 is that my attributes and alignment had no significant bearing on how I played through the game, outside of combat. I had a Paladin with 3 intelligence that was just as capable of solving riddles as a Mage with 18, just as fluent in speech.

It seemed like NPCs more frequently responded to my character's attributes and abilities in NWN than BG2. Plus, decisions would actually affect your alignment in some way shape and form. The only instance I can remember of this happening in BG2 was when you unleashed the beast at the endgame with Sarevok.

Throne of Bhaal was a bit better, but then again, so was HotU with character epilogues very much reflecting how you treated characters and how you interacted with them.

Posted by: entrerix Aug 27 2009, 04:08 PM

again I will point out that my lunacy comment was not intended as an insult.

I don't often choose to insult people and this is hardly a case for it

I was being genuine with a side of humor that didnt translate

so my apologies for insinuating you were an actual lunatic. I did not mean to offend you.

your comment just caught me off guard because it was so far outside the realm of what I was expecting (i've never before encountered someone who actually thought nwn was more of a roleplaying game than BG2)

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 04:13 PM

That's because people tend to think that because BG2 is the more 'fun'/'better' game than NWN that it atitomatically makes it more of a RPG. It doesn't. Like I said, I like BG2 more than NWN OC. Easily. BG2 is tied for my #1 favorite RPG along with FO2; but better at being a RPG? No, not even close. Alanshu covers why quite a bit in his post.

Posted by: kingofsquid Aug 27 2009, 04:53 PM

Is this thing turning into another damn flamewar?

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 27 2009, 05:57 PM

No, it's just everyone vs Volo like always.

Posted by: Maria Caliban Aug 27 2009, 06:57 PM

I thought the low intelligence conversation tree in NWN was a great deal of effort for very little pay off. I didn't even know they existed until I opened the OC in the toolset. Outside of comedy, the savior of X isn’t going to be a complete moron. Yes, it works in PnP, but that’s because you have other PCs who are smart.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 27 2009, 07:28 PM

It is just comedy, but it was hilarious.

Fallout's low int still takes the cake.

Posted by: Hurlshot Aug 27 2009, 08:29 PM

Actually I agree with Volo's main argument, and alanschu seems to as well.


But sometimes he argues with us even when we agree with him, so it's not always worth it to jump in and side with him. I have no idea why he spends so much time here, since he seems to dislike everybody here.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 27 2009, 08:53 PM

"Actually I agree with Volo's main argument, and alanschu seems to as well.


But sometimes he argues with us even when we agree with him"

Except.. your comment here don't make sense... I'm not arguing with Alanshu.... and, like you said why would I? He basically agrees with me...


" I have no idea why he spends so much time here, since he seems to dislike everybody here."

You have no idea despite the fact I've told you my reasons more than half a dozen times? L0LZ


"Fallout's low int still takes the cake"

Espicially FO2.

Posted by: Aristes Aug 27 2009, 09:27 PM

Aw, he might dislike us, but I'm fond of him. No same sex romances, though. I'm married.

I think the problem is, and here I'm siding with Volourn. Folks equate good gaming experience with better rpg experience, but BG2 was much more of a tactical combat sim than RPG. Like a lot of action RPGs, your primary choices settled on your character stats. I don't think NWN was a very good RPG, but I can see the potential of RPG with a group. At the time, I had folks to play PnP and I actually prefer my RPGs PnP anyhow.

I don't think NWN was a better game, but I do think that it tried harder to incorporate RPG elements and I think it was by and large more successful in meaningful RPG than BG2.

Then again, I think PS:T was better in terms of letting you define your character than either one and yet some folks go bat**** at the idea because you didn't have the option to choose your starting character in PS:T. RPG in terms of computers can be such a nebulous term.

Posted by: Monte Carlo Aug 27 2009, 09:43 PM

Praise the Lord (and pass the ammunition). That's why I like it so much, along with the IWD games.

That's why Dragon Age is interesting, because Bio are TRYING TO DO IT ALL. I'm sure the end product will fall five miles short of the gargantuan plume of hype, but at least they seem to accept that plot, fleshed-out NPCs and crunchy tactical combat aren't necessarily contradictory.

My favourite NPC is Llyranor, the idiotic talking sword from BG2 along with all the action-movie stereotypes from JA2. Sometimes less is more, Bejaysus the time I spend clicking through pointless NPC dialogue (::Cough::MaskoftheBetrayer::Cough::)...

Posted by: alanschu Aug 27 2009, 10:03 PM

I do have vague recollections of you sometimes aggressively agreeing though Volourn hehehe. I could be remembering stuff incorrectly though.




Even I remember the name of that sword is the Lirlacor, and it's been years since I last played it


"I'm a sword okay? Not an axe. I don't chop wood."

Posted by: Monte Carlo Aug 28 2009, 01:12 AM

^ My bad.

Actually, now I've thought about it some more, I remember Coran from BG1 as being a favourite NPC: a useful party member (in fact, used correctly a dungeon level-clearing death god given the sick powaz of archery and backstab in BG1 - both Coran's specialities) with a deftly drawn character and a sad little vignette about his deadbeat dad status that put his romeo persona into context. All in about twenty lines of dialogue and a funny portrait.

And they left him out of BG2 as a joinable NPC to make you take Yoshimo as your party thief, deus ex machina.

Like I said, sometimes less is more.

Cheers
MC

Posted by: Hurlshot Aug 28 2009, 06:53 AM

I'm pretty sure all idiotic talking swords are named Llyranor.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 28 2009, 01:02 PM

I wrote this little piece in a moment of boredom, and though its most (un)appreciative. Dont take it too seriously.

Once upon a time there was a kid that really liked playing computer games. He’d happily gobble down anything the gods of the game industry served up, with utmost glee. On one such munching escapade he came upon a role playing game called Baldur’s Gate, and he didn’t like at all it because it taxed his brain too much with alien concepts such as THACO and other gibberish. Growing in levels and XP he came to realize that he had misjudged those 5 CD’s harshly, and proceeded to immerse himself in them, the sequel and the last chapter in that story. Emerging from his cave slightly bearded and bleary eyed about a year later, he was sure that this was as good as it got, but still optimistic about the future.
The gods that reside in Bioware however had different plans. They had opened up a portal to the lower realms of Diablo and summoned from there a game tantalizingly named Neverwinter Nights. The kid, now a bit older was thrilled with this shiny new object, but somewhere around the end of it a smell of sulfur started to rise. Right about the time he was proclaimed a hero for saving the titular city he realized that several dozen hours of his life had been irrevocably wasted on an activity about as interesting as flipping through other peoples old photo albums. Nevertheless, everyone makes a mistake so he resigned himself to twiddling his RPG thumbs for several years until the real thing came along.
…
Several RPG years later.
…
The gods demanding worship, yet again endeavored to steal a portion of his life, and the teen was once again willing to sign the contract with blood. From this dark fate he was saved by his inbred dislike of Star Wars, that franchise popular amongst millions of ewoks everywhere. Yet he was not to be denied a chance to play an RPG because by that time, this preciousssss genre had irrevocably entered the bogs of mediocrity. So, wincing he played that sad console port, and found it indeed to be far above Diablo and somewhere around the level of a summer blockbuster. Unfortunately he was hard pressed to recall much about the game despite finishing it two times. Nevertheless he thought it was a good snack for the ewok legions, and attributed his dislike for it to not being a Star Warsy person.
…
The years were not kind to the innocent RPG loving child and his former optimism had left him, to be replaced with a take-what-you-can-get-view of the world.
…
RPG eons passed and yet another console port entered his midst, the Empire of Jade. He would have shared his opinion of the game with you, but somewhere around the time it was forming he was met with the credits and was wondering what he did wrong. He distinctly remembers mashing on mouse buttons for extended periods of time, while watching a movie with many asian people the rest of the time. If this was indeed the Jade Empire or that Jackie Chan themed game he couldn’t tell you definitely, but it probably wouldn’t matter.
…
Jade Empire had succeeded however in making him jaded, which apparently was its goal from the start, as it is included so obviously in the title.
…
Now having become intimately acquainted with the infinite boredom of dragons in their caves, waiting for the next shish-kebab adventurers to arrive, he began to question the world, universe and everything. But mostly the computer role playing game industry. Actually only Bioware.
…
Wise, and aspiring to Yoda status the child, now a man, could no more enjoy the simple pleasures of his youth, but the ever damning call of the RPG was still strong in his veins. It made him visit the third Massively (un)Effective delivery of the gods, for the lack of better ones in this dark age. He was immediately reminded of several lines in a movie no one remembers:

Neo: Déjà vu
Trinity: What did you say?
Neo: I saw a black cat pass, and then another one, just like it.
Trinity: It happens when they change something.

This is the logic that escapes the man whose tale we have been following. He was pretty sure he saw Mass Effect pass, though at the time it was called Knights of the Old Republic. Nevertheless everyone spoke of change such as the dialog wheel (replacing the rectangle) or cinematic gameplay (replacing the dreaded FMV games of ages past), or intense action (?), engaging storyline (??) and well written characters (???). The man will simply have to take Trinity’s word for it, that déjà vu, indeed, happens when they change something, because everyone else seems to believe it.
…
Tis’ never a kind moment when reality collides with expectations, and thus the man was defeated and is now resting on the bar drunk in the Hairy Bear inn in Vizima along with his randy platinum haired friend.
…
The gods do not rest however, for the dragons, mentioned before have gone on strike in their caves and managed to claim a title of their own, aptly named Dragon Age. The man regards them with the serene face of vodka and jadedness induced detachment, waiting to see how the dragons will be cheated out of their satisfaction.
…
Meanwhile the wind blows against the rickety window shutters of the inn making them bang against their frames, while pleasant music plays in the background bringing back memories of happier times.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 28 2009, 01:10 PM

That's not quite fair...

KotOR was a much better game than Mass Effect.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 28 2009, 01:15 PM

It was, and I was merely commenting on it cloning KOTOR (while losing just about everything that game did good). Don't take it too seriously, it was written to be light entertainment For the record its BG/BGII>KOTOR>Jade Empire>ME>NWN in my book.

Posted by: ramza Aug 28 2009, 01:16 PM

You forgot the following games: Planescape, IWD 1 and 2, ToEE, The Witcher, Kotor II and NWN II (with its expansions).
I could have been playing Infinity Engines games for my whole life if they kept making new adventures for it. I am not a graphics whore and do not care much about cinematics. All I want is a similar experience as that of BG 2 and I have yet to see that. Some Bio games came close to it but never reached it.

Don't get me wrong, BG2 was quite linear and the motivations of Irenicus were laughable. However, it was the way the setting (Amn) and the quests were designed that made it great and kept you busy for at least 100 hours.

I am waiting to see what Obz' next project is and I will then decide if I will give up any hopes for this company... Bio is a lost case for me and I don't even want to talk about Beth (they are not getting my money even if they are the last western "rpg" producer left)...

Posted by: Hurlshot Aug 28 2009, 01:17 PM

Yeah, no, not really. They were basically the same game.

And if you are named Darth, you are probably biased towards the Star Wars universe, so you might want to keep that in mind when judging the two.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 28 2009, 01:19 PM

It was primarily a story about Bioware, not my entire RPG experience though the Witcher is mentioned towards the end

Posted by: Volourn Aug 28 2009, 01:29 PM

"KotOR was a much better game than Mass Effect. "

No, no it isn't. In fact, ME is 10x better than KOTOR. I do agree they have lots of common but the cool thing about ME is it does everything better than KOTOR.

KOTOR is BIO worst game (still good) is really overrated.

Posted by: ramza Aug 28 2009, 01:48 PM

Volourn, please find yourself a cave for the winter and leave us in peace...

Posted by: Volourn Aug 28 2009, 02:06 PM

Why? You don't like differing opinions? I say tough.

Posted by: entrerix Aug 28 2009, 02:10 PM

this is another one of those, this guy must be joking or crazy

mass effect was 10x better than kotor?

I definitely did not get that impression upon playing them both

for the record though, i didnt like kotor 1. I DID like kotor 2. so take that for what you will

mass effect and kotor 1 are actually not that far apart in my book except the story in kotor was way better. companions were lame in both (except that robot killer dude - he was cool)

Posted by: alanschu Aug 28 2009, 02:36 PM

While I don't think Mass Effect was a significant improvement over KOTOR, I'd probably give it a slight edge.

I enjoyed both games an awful lot. And even though ME's combat was nothing to write home about, I did enjoy it more than KOTOR's. KOTOR's was cool for me simply because it was me roflstomping people as a Jedi, which will always be fun for me lol.


KOTOR's story is a bit tainted for me, because I saw too many parallels with NWN, from Bastila = Aribeth to Star Maps = Waterdhavian creatures.

Posted by: Pidesco Aug 28 2009, 02:42 PM

Mass Effect was KOTOR, but with better combat.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 28 2009, 03:00 PM

I can see it.

I enjoyed both so I don't care all that much


While this might not be popular, I loved the cinematic nature of ME, and actually really enjoyed the dialogue wheel for the most part.

Posted by: Wrath of Dagon Aug 28 2009, 03:31 PM

And the quests were way better, that is if one could even call the travesties in ME "quests". And the characters were better, and the dialog actually went somewhere. So pretty much all content was way better.

Posted by: Darth InSidious Aug 28 2009, 03:56 PM

No. They were certainly similar, but KotOR had:

-Better/more engaging side-quests (The Sunry murder trial in particular is an exceptional example by Bioware standards - in a good way; the mysterious box quest and the Yavin Station DLC also spring to mind);
-The originals of several of the characters mercilessly and rather badly cloned for ME (Carth [Kaidan] in particular, but also Canderous [Wrex], Juhani [Liara, etc.);
-An element of actual C&C (albeit not much, but this is Bio);
-Better dialogues;
-Greater variety in quest and level design (Consider the differences between, say, Manaan, Tatooine and Korriban, and the differences between any three of the planets in ME);
-Better voice-acting (This is debatable, admittedly, but KotOR wins by not having Male Shepard in it);
-Better party members (Jolee in particular);
-Better reason that you're SPESHUL;
-Better plot, (see also: SPESHUL).

Like I said, it's the better game. The one edge you might argue that ME has is its combat system, but given how your party members are balanced in such a way that your experience of how balanced combat is varies wildly depending on your class, this isn't quite as good as some might make out. Mass Effect's side quests are so banal and generic that they might as well have been procedurally generated. (Collect ten of X from planet Y by travelling to it and clicking on it!)

Perhaps for an encore we can argue over whether MotB is PS:T and vice versa?

Actually, I don't give much of a **** about Star Wars; my primary fandom is Dr. Who, but great job judging a book by its cover.

I chose this username when joining Filefront four years ago and looking for Jedi Academy mods, if you must know.


Could you elaborate on that, please?

Posted by: alanschu Aug 28 2009, 04:22 PM

I agree that KOTOR had better/more varied quests/side-quests. Though I expect that, given KOTOR is more "Action RPG" while KOTOR is more "RPG." Most of the sidequests in Mass Effect were, indeed, utter **** however.

A few things I disagree on however:

I actually disagree that Kaiden is a clone of Carth. Kaiden was much more level headed about a lot of issues. I think people got hung up on the fact that he was voiced by the same person, but Kaiden is much more interesting than Carth IMO.

Wrex differs from Canderous in that Canderous is purely about the tactics. He had no issues with Revan annihilating Mandalorians, because it was the Mandalorian way. Wrex, however, is hardly giving Saren a free pass for subjecting his race to be slaves and test subjects. He was mercenary, but if that's the similiarity, Canderous is hardly unique in that regard.

On a final note, I do find a lot of BioWare's characters to be rather similar. You accuse ME of cloning/copying KOTOR, though IMO KOTOR copied an awful lot of stuff from NWN.


Re: C&C Both games seem about even IMO. Perhaps there could have been more consequences for your choices in Mass Effect, but this is something I would have really preferred gone differently in KOTOR as well. Given your comment though, you seem to indicate that Mass Effect was devoid of any C&C, which is frankly an absurd statement. If you were to make me pick which game had better C&C though, I'd pick Mass Effect.


Dialogues I felt were very comparable.

I greatly disagree with voice acting, even if you didn't like male Sheppard (whom I had no issue with).

Party members I could probably give you. I'm a big fan of Jolee and HK. However, everyone seems to hate Ashley and Kaiden, both of whom I had no real issues with, and liked both characters. In fact, they were the NPCs I played with the most in my first playthrough, which made the big decision on Vimirie that much more awesome since I had to choose between the two NPCs I used the most.

Having said that, the game experience I enjoyed the most was definitely KOTOR. A lot of that has to do with the setting though.


As a final note DarthInsidious, you may not give a **** about Star Wars, but you most certainly do give a **** about KOTOR. We all have our biases.

Posted by: Volourn Aug 28 2009, 04:23 PM

Do a search. It's elaborated enough, and I don't fel like posing point after point just to have you bash me, anyways. Better to make it short, and sweet and have you bash me for that.

Bottom line is ME is a superior game to KOTOR. It's that simple.

Posted by: WILL THE ALMIGHTY Aug 28 2009, 05:02 PM

Jennifer Hale voices female Shep AND has a lesbian scene.

Why would you ever want to play as Male Sheppard?

Posted by: Maria Caliban Aug 28 2009, 07:33 PM

Carth != Kaiden - Other than that they were both the 'regular guy' of the crew.
Juhani != Liara - I have no idea where this came from. Their personalities are very different.

I can see how Wrex could be considered a copy of Canderous.

Posted by: Bos_hybrid Aug 28 2009, 07:46 PM

Volourn posts are easier to read. He/she doesn't post long winded posts about 'the death of rpgs' and about how he/she is no longer interested in them anymore.

Anyway, the ME/KoTOR debate, meh. I will just say I prefered them both to BG.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 29 2009, 01:32 AM

I think everyone here (me included probably) repeats their opinions on every RPG, several times a day. This could be because we talk about the same 10-15 titles all the time.

For example, did you know that Volourn's favorite is NWN?
No?
Really?

So, to avoid pointless arguments I'm just going to include the "Good, the Bad and the Ugly" in my sig and anyone who is willing to dispute them can just go and...

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 29 2009, 01:58 AM

So you are more a circle than a rectangle person?

Posted by: Aristes Aug 29 2009, 03:38 AM

Boo, you lunatic, your sig is almost as long as your rants. Hell, your sig *is* one of your rants.

Plus, I've never played Mass Effect, but I'm sure you could have found an actual screenie that would have demonstrated your point. I'm not certain that anything in the game was really quite as bad as that. Oh, and I appreciated the BG series and KotOR quite a bit. I even got my money's worth out of NWN. I did finish it and enjoy it after all. That's pretty damned good if you ask me.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 29 2009, 04:16 AM

Its a nice bite sized rant, so I dont have to write war & peace every time.

Its not about the dialog, its about the system being exactly the same, just using a different shape. It shows that all the dialogue wheel "innovation" is a baloney. It did do one thing however, it made things easier for people who equate reading to medieval torture.

Posted by: Aristes Aug 29 2009, 04:28 AM

Wow, that actually is much better. I mean, it's still a rant, but the columns work quite nicely.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 29 2009, 04:30 AM

God bless Excel and Image shack.

Posted by: virumor Aug 29 2009, 05:39 AM

Where are the legendary "Descent into Undermountain" and "Ruins of Myth Drannor"?!

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 29 2009, 05:42 AM

They are the Un-mentionables or the Forget-we-existed category

Posted by: Purkake Aug 29 2009, 05:55 AM

Save it as a .png, the JPG compression screws the edges up and makes it look generally ugly.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM

I have no issue with it because functionally it's the same (I would usually pick the full verbose dialogue based on its intent, just like the circle).


The advantage the circle had though, combined with full voice over, is that it made the game more cinematic. I didn't know exactly what was going to be said, so I actually watched the PC's dialogue responses, since I didn't already know specifically what was said.


As you say it's not really any different than previous dialogue progression. Yet people seem to have no issues chiding the **** out of it for somehow being inferior.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 29 2009, 06:38 AM

Crap, I lost the BMP original.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 29 2009, 06:47 AM

Now it's destined to be a blurry annoying thing for all of eternity. Guess I'll just turn sigs off.

Posted by: Deathdealer Aug 29 2009, 06:51 AM

It's also it's disadvantage in my opinion. It's annoying if shepard does/says something completely different than I expected. I don't understand the whole cinematic thing. If you don't have complete control of your own avatar in game, what is the whole point then? Why not to make the whole game play itself from start to finish? That would be really cinematic.

Just my 50 cents.

Posted by: virumor Aug 29 2009, 07:28 AM

Only if they include quick-time events.

Posted by: Bos_hybrid Aug 29 2009, 07:46 AM

Which they have......

Posted by: virumor Aug 29 2009, 08:11 AM

Posted by: Purkake Aug 29 2009, 08:13 AM

You're doing it wrong



What game are we talking about, anyway?

Posted by: Deathdealer Aug 29 2009, 08:15 AM

Singstar Star Wars: Rock 'n NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Posted by: cronicler Aug 29 2009, 08:21 AM

Ah, frag! not the Descent! Please no! Not the Descent! /Sob
There are some things, once expoerienced, can never be flossed out of your memory. Even with bleach!

Posted by: ramza Aug 29 2009, 08:44 AM

It's funny how you put FF12 among the good games, as it was craptastic, even for a FF game... I won't even comment about it being a RPG...
Moreover, you say that Jade empire>NWN1... Are you crazy? Despite its flaws and older technology, Jade Empire is wayyyyyyy inferior to NWN1...

Posted by: Purkake Aug 29 2009, 08:50 AM

It's FF10, not 12.

Watching paint dry is more fun than NWN1

Posted by: virumor Aug 29 2009, 08:54 AM

Well, I don't agree with Gothic 3 being terrible... sure getting killed by wolves every five minutes due to broken combat system is annoying, but the game world/characters/voice acting are better than anything in Oblivion - and the game was rushed by JoWood to boot.

Posted by: ramza Aug 29 2009, 09:00 AM

My mistake, but FF10 is as craptastic as 12...

Posted by: Purkake Aug 29 2009, 09:05 AM

What about X-2, isn't that the most horrible one?

Posted by: cronicler Aug 29 2009, 09:16 AM

You racist! You just cant stand Lesbians! Confess it!

Posted by: Purkake Aug 29 2009, 09:18 AM

Me?

I haven't played any of them.

And when did lesbians become another race? They aren't all blue aliens, you know.

Posted by: cronicler Aug 29 2009, 09:37 AM

Dunno, is it sexist then? But that only means hating other sex or so the dictionary says and so on.
Dunno what came over me but ill stop trolling now. (I hopee )

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 29 2009, 09:44 AM

Yargh, where were we... now,

Playing FFXII was so boring I didnt finish it, (as well as having my fill of androgynous main characters) as for FFX its not an rpg but a movie with a whole lot of random encounters. Still I liked the characters and the story (a lot), and the wonderful art design. As well as the music. Its included under RPG for the lack of a better gender definition.
X-2 was beyond horrible, I choose to disregard its existence.
I've also played FFIV, FFVII and FFVIII and all of them bored me to tears even though they had a lot going for them.

Sorry to say but Gothic III is unforgivably bad. The story sucks, the quests suck, the combat doesn't work just like most of the mechanic, its buggy, it rapes my hard drive for no good reason, it offers no improvements over the Gothic II formula, merely screwing it up further ... Too many things going against it. However the graphics are great and the music is great too, and its got a certain charm - thats why its even mentioned.
It has a hell of a lot more charm than Oblivion but Oblivion is, when all is said and done a functional game. A bland, stupid, but functional game.
So their respective failings shove them into the same category.

It should be noted that RPGs which didn't even make the list (such as POR2) are considered either beyond terrible or Diablo clones, so there is a worse place to be than in the "terrible" category

As for Jade Empire, apart from having the worst gameplay ever seen in an RPG it does have nice art direction, a story of sorts and characters. Unlike NWN.

Posted by: virumor Aug 29 2009, 10:05 AM

What, you didn't like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4poJJu-ZH-0&feature=related?!

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 29 2009, 10:10 AM

Posted by: Purkake Aug 29 2009, 10:21 AM

It would be discrimination based on sexual orientation.

@Boo great success with the sig, no more blurry stuff. Now if you could match the color 100% as well...

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 29 2009, 10:27 AM

After that all thats left is to upload my personality and integrate myself with the Obsidian AI.

And screw up everything

In case you havent noticed posts alternate between two different shades of gray so its impossible to match them both.

Get off your lazy ass and make one of your own, so we can have something to argue about.

Posted by: Purkake Aug 29 2009, 11:03 AM

I always thought it was one dull gray.

The more you know...

Let's not start a super annoying trend here, ok?

Posted by: Meshugger Aug 31 2009, 04:34 AM

Here i thought that i was the only one who thought that way about FFXII and FFX. How wrong i was.

You forgot to add that they successfully managed to create an incredibly well and thought-out culture(s) around Yevon as well. No other game have achieved that of such high quality (except Torment).

FF X-2 had some great moments: Like the intromusic while the credits were rolling, and some other piano-compositions as well. The rest was forgettable.

Posted by: RPGmasterBoo Aug 31 2009, 04:56 AM

In theory FFXII should be more fun to play - the battles are faster, the world better suited to roaming, but the story and characters dont suck you in, because for all the great design - you've seen them a thousand times. That the FFXII came at the end of the PS2's life didn't help.
Yes, FFX has this otherworldly quality and even though it has its fair share of cliches the world is pretty unique and very well fleshed out. The scene where you step through a portal in Guadosalam into the Farplane gives you the aesthetic equivalent of having a brick thrown in your face. My jaw promptly smacked to the ground.



This is from an FMV in that same scene, but the in game scene looks exactly the same because it is an FMV loop running in the background while your PC stands on a regular 3D rock outcropping. The low res of the TV blends them together and it looks amazing, plus the water is so well animated you can just sit and gawk at the tranquility of the scene. This was 2002, or even 2001 - before NWN and Morrowind, which incidentally today look like crap.

Posted by: alanschu Aug 31 2009, 08:19 AM

You never have complete control over your avatar in any computer game. You only have the control that the designers allow you to have.

I can understand that some people might want to know precisely every word that Shepard wants. Though in playthroughs of KOTOR and so forth, I already found myself choosing options based on the intent of the dialogue, as it hardly ever corresponds to how I would actually prefer my character to say it. As a result, the dialogue circle was pretty much a wash for me compared to the standard format, with the small added bonus of incentive to actually watch my character talk too.

Posted by: Deathdealer Aug 31 2009, 08:46 AM

You know what I meant.

But I'm rather an actor in rpg than a director who decides what the main protagonist feels. I would like the wheel just as much as the standard dialog system, if it would give more information how shepard reacts.